Suggestions for 2.1

[Lord Xizer]

It might but payoff would be worth it most likely.

[Corey]

What would it actually consist of though, what's the situation it comes up in, and what actually comes out of having done it? We can't really just make a mission out of "this battle happened at this place at this time, so turn that into a mission," that's a campaign type thing, it doesn't work in a sandbox and it kind of removes the point of being a sandbox.

Here's what makes the Katana mission work:
It's a self-contained thing that doesn't rely on any specific events, save for having one person involved and requiring some intel, which is useful as a launching point for the mission. Once it starts there's a very clear objective (capture the dreadnaughts) and a clear reward for it (you get the dreadnaughts). The actual pre-requisite for the mission to exist, the Katana fleet being where it was, is not contingent on any actions taken by either side in the GC; it's something they can react to, but not something caused within that frame or would be changed by different actions of that group.

Razor's Kiss is a pretty different situation. It would not be doable as the New Republic (since the NR and IR are together in the Zsinj GC), since we can't force Zsinj to show up to steal a ship from you that you're both not building and can't build. It wouldn't make sense. We could make it so as Zsinj you get a prompt to invade Kuat and take it, but then what's the actual mission? You end up at the planet with an SSD, to steal another SSD against forces that aren't able to actually compete with you since you'd need to have your SSD there in the first place; effectively the result is the exact same as it would be if you just invaded Kuat normally, except you're effectively forced to retreat at the end after beating their existing garrison (in a sandbox it doesn't make sense to put in a seperate non-existant garrison on a planet that already has its own) and with an SSD as a capture reward. Except if the point of the mission is to match the canon event, we then have to force a second battle with a magic spawned fleet, including heroes which are more likely already somewhere else in the galaxy. If you win that battle, you kill two heroes (who then still remain alive on the other side of the galaxy and get a second SSD that Zsinj never actually kept.

There's really not much that this mission adds. There's no new combat dynamics involved that make it worth having, it'd end up being obscenely easy, it interrupts the flow of the actual GC (what if you just wanted to invade Kuat and brought Iron Fist, why should you be forced through two battles that don't have an effect on the campaign?) and the end result, if it's successful, contradicts the canon event, which is counterintuitive if the only reason left to have it there is that canon event.

Again, this isn't a campaign, and can't be done as one. The tools just aren't there within the game, and as it is the missions are a huge amount of work, especially when we only have one person who can do them. The narrative aspect isn't really possible to get that far into, and something like Razor's Kiss relies very heavily on the narrative; it's not about the gameplay it offers.

It's also why any generic "Battle for Planet X" event in canon makes a bad mission. If you want there to be a battle for that planet, then just invade it. That's already done within the context of the game.

That's why things like the Katana Mission, or even the raid on Sluis Van are suitable for missions. You don't need to rely on specific actions being taken by both sides and there only has to be minimal amounts of exposition. The events themselves don't need to be "scripted" because the important thing is the starting point. You set a clear, unintrusive way to get into a mission, the mission involves some objective you don't normally get that actually changes how you play in the battle, but you're still free to do what you want in that context. Once you're in, we don't have to control your actions. Capture what you want, and get out in the case of the Katana Mission. We don't have to force a bunch of heroes who may or may not have died already to be in a new location, we don't have to force a bunch of extra battles you may or may not actually want as a result, there's a clear reward for doing them, and it doesn't rely on a certain planet held by a certain faction having certain units at a certain time to function.

[Lord Xizer]

I see. Part of me was just hoping for the Hunt For Zsinj campaign to have a few more commando aspects to it, i.e. the Wraiths and their missions sabotaging Zsinj and Zsinj's sleeper cells doing similar things to the NR I know that EaW has limits and the team has surpassed those as often as possible.

[Revanchist]

I have some more ideas that I have come up with in my research.

The TIE Crawler seems a little underpowered. It is supposed to have 2 medium blaster cannons and a light turbolaser cannon, but it doesn't seem to pack enought punch to be an anti vehicle unit.

[yutpaeksi]

That's why things like the Katana Mission, or even the raid on Sluis Van are suitable for missions. You don't need to rely on specific actions being taken by both sides and there only has to be minimal amounts of exposition. The events themselves don't need to be "scripted" because the important thing is the starting point. You set a clear, unintrusive way to get into a mission, the mission involves some objective you don't normally get that actually changes how you play in the battle, but you're still free to do what you want in that context. Once you're in, we don't have to control your actions. Capture what you want, and get out in the case of the Katana Mission. We don't have to force a bunch of heroes who may or may not have died already to be in a new location, we don't have to force a bunch of extra battles you may or may not actually want as a result, there's a clear reward for doing them, and it doesn't rely on a certain planet held by a certain faction having certain units at a certain time to function.

Thanks for the explanation Corey. Based on what you've said, I'd like to propose an information raid mission for the NR to Yaga Minor's Ubiqtorate Base (you can a "deep space" location close by Yaga Minor) during the Camaas Crisis.

For a starting point, the mission could be offered as soon as the GC starts, and all it would require would be bringing Garm Bel Iblis to the location. Now, at the location itself, your objective could be to defend the Errant Venture , which is locked into a location as it's downloading the Camaas Document. The EV itself doesn't even need to be a real ship, you could use an ISD prop for it, park it next to one of those orbital stations you see around Fonder or Kuat.

The NR player has access only to the fleet it brings, and you could use the scripting you've done for the survival mode to send in waves of IR defenders gunning for the Venture. Now you don't need Tierce there to satisfy canon or to even make it a real battle. Victory can be achieved if the Venture survives, say, three waves of IR attacks. The reward for this could be access to Bothan Assault Cruisers.

The BACs are a nice addition to the NR fleets, but you've already fudged its timeline anyway, and the NR has plenty of powerful New Class ships already. So it would be more optional than not, but with a clear benefit. Oh and an additional reward could be allowing for the EV to be rebuilt to full strength, instead of allowing it from the beginning of the GC as it is now.

[yutpaeksi]

I have some more ideas that I have come up with in my research.

The TIE Crawler seems a little underpowered. It is supposed to have 2 medium blaster cannons and a light turbolaser cannon, but it doesn't seem to pack enought punch to be an anti vehicle unit.

I agree with you, I've noticed that myself so I did some quick testing with them, and it appears they they use their turbolaser cannon ONLY against infantry, but use only their blaster cannons against vehicles and buildings. I assume this is simply a small bug, the opposite should be true.

[Slornie]

I agree with you, I've noticed that myself so I did some quick testing with them, and it appears they they use their turbolaser cannon ONLY against infantry, but use only their blaster cannons against vehicles and buildings.

Lol whoops.  Looks like you're right about the turbolaser, however the blasters are able to target vehicles, buildings and infantry.

[yutpaeksi]

Lol whoops.  Looks like you're right about the turbolaser, however the blasters are able to target vehicles, buildings and infantry.

Sorry, I didn't mean that they don't use the blaster cannons as well against the infantry, but rather that I imagine you meant to code it such that they only used the turbo against vehicles and buildings. But yeah if that gets corrected, the Crawlers become much more useful. Right now though, they're really only good for killing infantry, and that's kinda of terrible because they're so slow.

[Revanchist]

Sorry, I didn't mean that they don't use the blaster cannons as well against the infantry, but rather that I imagine you meant to code it such that they only used the turbo against vehicles and buildings. But yeah if that gets corrected, the Crawlers become much more useful. Right now though, they're really only good for killing infantry, and that's kinda of terrible because they're so slow.

That, and being a useful (albeit slow) scout and damage sink that can take quite a pounding and yet still be easily replaced.

[Revanchist]

I have another suggestion. I'm not sure if this has been done (as I haven't played as te NR yet) but te Endurance class description says it carries 5 Defender Squads and 2 K-Wing squads. However, looking at the canon compliment it states that it carried a wing of short range and a wing of long range superiority fighters. Therefore I think it's fighter compliment should be changed to 1 K wing, 2 Defender, 1 A wing, 1 X wing and 1 E wing squad. The Nebula on the other hand, being the dedicated assault capital should remain only having Defenders and K wings.

[yutpaeksi]

I have another suggestion. I'm not sure if this has been done (as I haven't played as te NR yet) but te Endurance class description says it carries 5 Defender Squads and 2 K-Wing squads. However, looking at the canon compliment it states that it carried a wing of short range and a wing of long range superiority fighters. Therefore I think it's fighter compliment should be changed to 1 K wing, 2 Defender, 1 A wing, 1 X wing and 1 E wing squad. The Nebula on the other hand, being the dedicated assault capital should remain only having Defenders and K wings.

Part of this is the confusion centered around the word "wing". For some reason, Imps define a "wing" as 6 squadrons, hence the standard 6 that come on an ISD, but the NR defines it as 3 squadrons. Therefore, when wookiepedia says:

"The main fighting punch of an Endurance-class ship consisted of two wings of starfighters in addition to the five squadrons a Nebula-class Star Destroyer carries."

it means that the Endurance carries a total of 11 squadrons, which is what is currently implemented. Great job TR team, you guys are always on top of stuff like this and it's great to see.

Also, the current mix that the Endurance carries, which is all E-wings and K-wings, is the best mix possible as those are the NR's best fighter and bomber. Changing it would debuff the Endurance greatly, as it already requires 7 pop.

[Revanchist]

I see. Thanks for correcting me on that.

[yutpaeksi]

I see. Thanks for correcting me on that.

Not a correction, just informing. =) It's the canon that causes confusion.

[Slornie]

Not a correction, just informing. =) It's the canon that causes confusion.

Just wait until you get to the Defender-class Assault Carrier (which we don't have in the mod)!  According to canon it only carries three squadrons - so a dedicated carrier with less squadrons than a modified bulk cruiser half its size? (the Quasar carries four squadrons).  In that case it has always been my argument that the author meant three wings (nine squadrons).

[Corey]

And it's always been my argument that they meant what they said, but that everyone involved in deciding the New Class program information was out of their minds on tequila and heroine.

[tlmiller]

They have Tequila in the SW universe??

Is it made by Mexican Sith Lords?  Darth Juan?  Darth Jose?  Darth Pedro? 

[Revanchist]

Just wait until you get to the Defender-class Assault Carrier (which we don't have in the mod)!  According to canon it only carries three squadrons - so a dedicated carrier with less squadrons than a modified bulk cruiser half its size? (the Quasar carries four squadrons).  In that case it has always been my argument that the author meant three wings (nine squadrons).

The creepier thing is that it was built on the same hull as the Majestic class, which could hold 5 squadrons of starfighters.

[yutpaeksi]

The creepier thing is that it was built on the same hull as the Majestic class, which could hold 5 squadrons of starfighters.

Speaking of the Majestic, it's the only NR capital ship that has no fighters in the game. Why is this? As revanchist says, it's supposed to field 5 squadrons, and ships of this class like the Indomitable were known to carry E-wings and K-wings. Was this a balance choice? I recently only discovered how fast these things are, and I'd field them a lot more often if they carried fighters.

And yeah, the Defender carrier obviously made absolutely no sense. Whoever did Cracken's threat dossier must be fired by now right?

[Slornie]

Speaking of the Majestic, it's the only NR capital ship that has no fighters in the game. Why is this?

Because when we redid all the unit stats before 2.0 (about a year ago now) its stats on Wookieepedia* didn't mention any complement.  Apparently that article was updated to mention that sometime afterwards and we had no cause to go back and check.  Whether this will be revisited in light of this new information, I don't know.

*Normally the first port of call, followed by the source materials for anything questionable.

EDIT: Apparently we could also now give it the point defence ability to account for the antimissile octets it fields (also added to the stats on Wookiee since we set the stats).

[yutpaeksi]

Because when we redid all the unit stats before 2.0 (about a year ago now) its stats on Wookieepedia* didn't mention any complement.  Apparently that article was updated to mention that sometime afterwards and we had no cause to go back and check.  Whether this will be revisited in light of this new information, I don't know.

Ah yes, you're right, apologies. I remember being surprised by the lack of fighters then and checking Wookieepedia at the time. However, the BFC books were pretty clear on this, so will this be addressed in 2.1? Thanks Slornie.