Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Isamu on March 01, 2008, 03:39:44 PM
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this is split from the favorite playable faction topic. this is a discussion on if the sith empire from the kotor games about 4000 years ago could stand a chance against the stuff around today.
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Shouldn't this be in Star Wars Discussion?
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it could but it doesn't really matter unless arbiter wants me to move it.
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How the hell could ships with 4000 year old technology possibly beat the "modern" ships? Thats like telling a fucking archer to run at an Abrams tank.
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Or the Ewoks trying to defeat the Empire........ wait.
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The Ewoks had two things helping them:
-Rebel Commandos
-The Stormtrooper effect
Either way, large rocks and flying logs will always pose a danger to regular people dressed in something as strong as saran wrap, whereas the Sith ships wouldn't even be able to penetrate a "modern" ship's shields without a massive amount concentrating on one target.
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star forge?
the star forge built whatever the commander wanted. sith interdictors were built from it, but were originally republic ships. with this in mind, they could effectively steal ships from the empire in the same way the harbinger was stolen and steal the specs for it and amake the star forge produce them. there would be no other way.
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Then simply destroy the Star Forge, problem solved, if a 4000 year-old fleet could do it, it wouldn't be too hard
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Death Star. Or better yet, Sun Crusher!
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the task is finding it becuase i can imagine it would be hidden like it was, getting to it undetected with such a large attack force would be incredibly hard and then there is the problem of getting past probably half of the total fleet powers being used to defend it.
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Umm? Why would they need to go undetected? They could easily destroy ANYTHING the Sith threw at them.
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A Sith Interdictor can't be more than half an SD's length! And as I said, a SUN CRUSHER could easily kill it. Or a Death Star. Which they couldn't build with the star forge, since it's too large.
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but they could build sun crushers and hold the galaxy at ransom
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They would have to STEAL one first. And how will they do that? They won't. They would need to either steal one or storm the Maw installation. They wouldn't be able to steal one, since you can't stop one. And they wouldn't be able to steal plans from the Maw, because it is protected by four ISDs, mark IIs I believe, and they don't have a single ship that can come close to matching one in combat. They lose.
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they could steal designs. and besides the planet that orbits the starforge's star gives off an emp that no ship can get by.
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Steal designs from where, they were only at the Maw!!! And the emp field won't stop the missile the Sun Crusher sends at the at the star, from well outside the field (that thing has a very long range).
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If they're stealing designs then it completely defeats the purpose of this debate. The whole idea is that the technology at the time was very inferior to the "modern" ships.
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when the sun crusher was used in the nebula and the corulag (i think) system, they were pretty much right in front of the star. and emp shuts down everything and besides the suncrusher cannot be accessed. neither can a deathstar
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At Caridia, Kype fired it from outside Caridia's orbit! And, since it's habitable, fairly far away from the star. And the Arbiter is right. If the Sith were using Imperial Technology, they would just be an offshoot of the Empire!
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once again the suncrusher cannot be used anymore. and also the sith won't need imperial tech. they have everything they need. it may be basic but there are missiles, turbolasers, and laser cannons available. they stand a hell of a better chance against the empire than the rebellion did. they also have better production capabilities and numbers
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The Sith Empire wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell. A standard Sith Interdictor-class Cruiser was 600 meters long and had 20 quad laser cannons and four turbolaser cannons. Considering the fact that in more modern times, ships as small as the Millenium Falcon fielded quad lasers, the armament is pretty light in comparison to a modern warship. Four turbolasers are hardly a match for something like an Imperial-class Star Destroyer, whose eight heavy turbolaser batteries could outgun an Interdictor before the Destroyer's standard armament of some 50 turbolasers and additional point-defense weaponry is even taken into account. It'd be a pretty stacked fight, with the Galactic Empire's arsenal on top.
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What numbers? After falling through this "rift in time" they would have no worlds to recruit from! And those weapons systems would be 4,000 years out of date. Don't you think the damage yield would have improved just a little bit? Also, WHY can't the Sun Crusher be used any more? Does the Empire now have a " No Superweapon" policy? And how do they stand a better chance than the rebels? The rebels are using modern tech and are recruiting from the worlds of that time period.
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empire would probably win in space with superior fire power but what about on the ground? dark jedi can be pretty powerful against troopers.
(what if the sith empire had thrived for 4000 years not changing anything)
sun crusher was thrown into a gas giant to prevent it from being used
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Yes, dark jedi would be powerful, but even they would have had a hard time fighting AT-ATs and T4s. Vehicle were only common for the Mandolorians at that point, the Sith had virtually none.
Also, the Sun fire was destroyed by being sent into the Maw. And if we're using your "destroyed so can't be used" principle, then where are you getting this Sith fleet from?
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in kotor there is the option of saving the starforge to build your own empire. if the sith were to survive, the star forge would probably be with them
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1. The Empire had large and powerful tanks, quite capabe of killing any enemy tank or infantry unit sent to kill them.
2. Most Force-users weren't that powerful and could be easily taken down by a relatively small group of troops
3. Why would they survive 4,000 years and NOT change tech? Do they want to die?
4. If the Sun Crusher is gone, then the main threat against them is the NR or GA, which is, in some ways, a lot worse.
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It was stated in KotOR II that the Star Forge was destroyed, regardless of whatever ending you played in the first one. Star Forge isn't gonna be a factor 4000 years later.
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okay i lose this one i'm done. starting a new vs. topic. this is the url http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,726.0.html (http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,726.0.html)
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empire would probably win in space with superior fire power but what about on the ground? dark jedi can be pretty powerful against troopers.
Ysalamiri?
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and empire can always kill them using orbital bombardment.
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Unless the jedi decide to sling the fleet hundreds of light years into deep space
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orbital bombardment isn't precise enough. thats like trying to hit 1 person in a crowd with a shotgun 40 yards away
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Orbital bombardment is plenty percise.
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doesn't sound like it from what i have heard. i could be wrong though. it sounds more like mass area affect
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Exactly. A large mass area effect, you dont need to precisely target your enemy - Just aim it roughly where they are :P
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okay pretend you are worried about collateral damage now what?
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Why would you be worried about collateral damage when facing an army of evil sith?
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it depends. besides couldn't an army of evil sith stop a bombardment?
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Most force-users aren't that powerful! How do you think the clones easily wiped out most of their Jedi commanders and those in the temple so easily. Besides, that army of evil sith would be fighting an army of AT-ATs :police:
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Tyrant posted? ??? ??? Prepare for the Apocalypse! :o
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it depends. besides couldn't an army of evil sith stop a bombardment?
All sith are not masters of the dark side, it takes alot of power to stop a turbolaser bolt
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orbital bombardment isn't precise enough. thats like trying to hit 1 person in a crowd with a shotgun 40 yards away
I was under the impression that it was very precise. Didn't Pellaeon say that Chimaeras gunners could destroy the village that C'Baoth ruled without even singeing the grass of Mount Tantiss? I think that reguires very accurate shooting as they were very near by. And you have to remember that even sith lords can't stop everything thrown against them.
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maybe. but when turbolasers hit the ground they can take out a small village with the explosion
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depends the size. It's damage was little enough for Thrawn to use it to destroy some bases on Ukio. And if it would cause massive damage on large area that would have been stupid. And Thrawn wasn't stupid.
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thrawn's character creator obviously read the art of war to make him that smart
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maybe Zahn did, maybe not. All I know is that Thrawn is the greatest military commander in the history of the Galaxy.
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there are things to learn from every commander. my wanted proffession is a tactical officer in the navy
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so you're a handsome boy, are you?
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Then simply destroy the Star Forge, problem solved, if a 4000 year-old fleet could do it, it wouldn't be too hard
What about Re-Van?
If it wasn't for him the sith would have won 10 times over
anyways a fleet of sheer numbers, tacticts, and darkside powers unknown to the people of the current era can still make up for a loss in technology
And we have to remember the sith aren't stupid
Solution: Capture a Star Destroyer and mass produce it with the star forge
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Theres only one flaw with your whole "superior numbers and tactics" argument. What was it? Oh yeah, THEY ALREADY LOST
If the sith were so smart they would have won when fighting an army of equal technology, but they didnt.
And Revan is nothing compared to Luke Skywalker, you cant argue that
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As I said, how the hell will they get their hands on a SD in the first place? They would not be able to capture one in battle, since they wouldn't be able to beat one without it merely running away, and they wouldn't be able to steal one since they would not know how to operate one to get it to a safe harbor! And any tactical skill Revan has is negated by Thrawn :police:
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Theres only one flaw with your whole "superior numbers and tactics" argument. What was it? Oh yeah, THEY ALREADY LOST
If the sith were so smart they would have won when fighting an army of equal technology, but they didnt.
And Revan is nothing compared to Luke Skywalker, you cant argue that
this is if they hadn't lost
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Okay, i split off the Luke Skywalker discussion, since it had nothing to do with the Sith Empire. You can find it here (http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,734.0.html)
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so you're a handsome boy, are you?
what?
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you said you wanted to join the navy.
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yes i just dont get the handsome boy thing enlighten me.
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Its a stereotype associated with the Navy :P
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A rather foolish sterotype-it simply means that men in the Navy are homosexuals. Of course people operating on a ship seperated from people of the opposite sex for so long do tend to have homosexual tendencies, but it is just a sterotype.
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except that the navy doesn't allow open homosexuals. and thanks anarchist i shall applaud you.
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Its a stereotype associated with the Navy :P
points for Slornie. it's a stereotype. Handsome ones go to navy (doesn't mean they're homosexuals), the best ones go to air force and the rest go to army/land force/infantry (all are same but different names (meaning that last one only of course)).
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that sounds pretty much like bull shit
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Actually I do not see how you can 'rate' people who join different military organisations. You cant compare people from the Army to the Navy and the Air Force, it just doesnt make sense. They have entirely different roles, even though they work jointly. You can rate the individuals in each group against their fellow individuals, if only they are in the smae group. To put it truly with stereotypes-ARMY=extremely muscular people-this is a really stipid one; people in the military have some degree of muscle AND fat (to stop bullets)-what's the point of having a huge, lumbering man that has bullets punch through him like a knife through soft butter?
=with no brains-if ur in the military, you HAVE to be pretty damm intelligent, you cant just fail in school then join the military-even conscription doesnt affect dumb people.
=are really cruel to those under their command-people in the army are some of the kindest people i know! (i know A LOT!)
NAVY=gay-obviously not, whats the point of having a military if it doesnt do what u order them too-instead just has an orgy?
='pretty'-lots of them are ugly.
AIR FORCE=calm-they arent all necessarily calm, many of them i know are quite edgy and frantic.
=small-they dont HAVE to be small.
=intelligent-this is the actual only partially truthful stereotype-if ur a pilot, u HAVE to remember tons of stuff.
Back on topic=I still think that there is no possible way for the Sith Empire to defeat any of the modern factions.
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that sounds pretty much like bull shit
You take it too seriously. and to correct my earlier statement it's more of a joke than stereotype. I heard it from couple of guys from the AF.
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except that the navy doesn't allow open homosexuals.
i highly doubt that. that is a pretty neo-fascist thing. it does't matter if they are homosexual or not. if you sign up for the navy, you are unlikely to be the stereotypical type of homosexual. where do you get all your facts? stop bullshitting.
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Topic
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A rather foolish sterotype-it simply means that men in the Navy are homosexuals. Of course people operating on a ship seperated from people of the opposite sex for so long do tend to have homosexual tendencies, but it is just a sterotype.
uhh, WTF?
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lol i just read that slowly and now im thinking the same thing.
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Anyhow, this doesnt have anything to do with the Sith Empire.
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Besides, the sith empire was only good as long as Revan fought for it. And, according to canon, Revan went lightside. Jedi win. Sith, Epic Failure!
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Sorry to go off-topic, but it seems people do not understand my eariler comment:
A rather foolish sterotype-it simply means that men in the Navy are homosexuals. Of course people operating on a ship seperated from people of the opposite sex for so long do tend to have homosexual tendencies, but it is just a sterotype.
Unless you are not human, or living for that matter, you have sexual tendencies and lusts. When people cannot satisfy those lusts (humans on average need to do it like once a week, some equals once a day), they tend to do anything in their power to do so, whether it be cheating on your wife/husband with someone else, or merely going gay for easier access to sex.
Sorry for the off-topic conversation, but that had to be cleared up. It is a disgusting topic, but then again, all topics concerning living things are disgusting in some manner.
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back on topic please anarchist. its interesting that in canon revan went light since in foc he is frozen in carbonite behind all the sith troopers.
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where does it say that it's Revan?
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it is his guess although with no evidence whatsoever. however, it is possible.
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If it is, I have lost all respect for the Lucasarts writing staff.
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they do change things its really hard to find a true answer.
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Come to think of it, that did look like Revan. By the way I thought that Petroglyph made the story for FoC, and we all know that Tyber Zann and all that are non-existant, so it would seem like that part is fictional as well.
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technically the whole thing is fictional.
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Technically the whole Star Wars universe is fictional.. But that doesnt stop people debating it :P
As for FoC, it is C-Level canon, alongside the novels, comics, and plots of other games.
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Ummm, technically you cant dispute the Jedi Knight games-the ones where you play as Kyle Katarn, not the new one where you play as Jaden. FoC is so uber-non canon that it makes my skin crawl, if there was a criminal mastermind as powerful as Tyber Zann, they would ahve mentioned him somewhere.
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They do have him mentioned somehwere, FoC
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You mean Tyber Zann? He is only mentioned on Wikipedia and Wookiepedia (im not even sure if he's on Wookiepedia anyway) as the protagonist of FoC.
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Uhh, where else is he supposed to be mentioned?
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The point is, no matter how you dislike FoC, it is still canon, on the same level as the Thrawn trilogy. the New Jedi Order, the Republic Commando series, KOTOR, etc.
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I know, I know. I still think it's complete sophistry nonetheless.
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nothing can be done about it now.
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And it's all Petroglyph's fault. I wish LucasArts would actually do something about gaming companies who ahve no idea what their on about making their own little stories of characters that they think have to be so much better than the main characters of the original Star Wars universe. It's so unfair on Anakin, Palpatine, Luke, Thrawn, etc.
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how about you two get back to topic. and please do it ASAP.
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Sure thing Meyer.
When it comes to the Sith Empire, I don't know too much, and I guess I would like to know who was the most powerful Sith before they decided to go into hiding.
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in power, revan. although from the description in kotor 2, marka ragnos sounded powerful. his death made a power vacuum.
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It did at that didnt it?
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actually after Marka Ragnos Naga Sadow took over the Sith Empire and attacked the Republic thus beginning the Great Hyperspace War which brought the end of the Sith Empire.
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in power, revan. although from the description in kotor 2, marka ragnos sounded powerful. his death made a power vacuum.
I wouldn't say Revan was the most powerful sith
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revan leaving made a brief power vacuum that was quickly filled by several sith lords combined. i think the most powerful are probably unheard of.
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what are you talking about? we have full knowlede of that period. it was malak and (most likely) bandon, then briefly, bastila, then it went to traya, sion and nihilus.
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I think he means like, there may be Sith Lords that are unheard of that were more dominant than the ones we know of; not necessarily in the KotOR time frame.
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I doubt that. Those who are the powerful ones are well recorded I believe.
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unless he thinks any dark jedi can be recognised as a sith lord.
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dark jedi aren't in the darkside enough to be a sith lord. you have to slide pretty deep.
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not really. look at jerec. he was pretty evil, but he was never a sith lord.
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no im saying you had to be really bad to be a sith lord and dark jedi weren't bad enough.
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but if the slot was vacant, you would take it,right? jerec didn't.
and look at some, like darth bandon. wouldn't say he applies with your argument. he was just a sadist (yes, theat is a dark side quality)
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there can be acceptions but bandon had no one to oppose him.
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where were sion and nihilus when this was going on?
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not in power.
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You know, I also think that not all of the most powerful SIth Lords are recorded. I mean, I looked up the list of Sith Lords on Wookiepedia, and it seems that only a few of the Sith Lords of the golden age (like Marka Ragnos) are shown, and that there were many before them that werent listed, but then again my memory is slightly faulty, so I may have just forgotten.
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i think the true golden age of sith and jedi past maybe 15-17 thousand years ago when they were at their most powerful on both sides.
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You know, I also think that not all of the most powerful SIth Lords are recorded. I mean, I looked up the list of Sith Lords on Wookiepedia, and it seems that only a few of the Sith Lords of the golden age (like Marka Ragnos) are shown, and that there were many before them that werent listed, but then again my memory is slightly faulty, so I may have just forgotten.
That's because the Golden Age began when Ragnos came to power.
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there is nothing pre- hyperspace war.
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not yet anyways. eventually there will be.
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i don't know. it seems to be the most untouched area (excluding 41ABY-legacy era.)
i don't think star wars will last forever.
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there is nothing pre- hyperspace war.
what do you mean by that exactly? could clarify?
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before marka ragnos, there are not many large preiods of canon. just small incedences.
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well the rakatan empire. 100 year darkness. there is not much know about them but they are important things.
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yea but thats about it. there is nothing else
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Anyways, point is, Sith Empire would have lost, period.
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If it were only battles between Old Sith and the NJO, then Sith would win because of them having more mastery over the Force. But because the New Republic backs the NJO, the Sith would lose.
before marka ragnos, there are not many large preiods of canon. just small incedences.
But surely their must have been Sith Lords before him; there is a lot of time that hasnt been covered in the SW universe.
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If it were only battles between Old Sith and the NJO, then Sith would win because of them having more mastery over the Force. But because the New Republic backs the NJO, the Sith would lose.
before marka ragnos, there are not many large preiods of canon. just small incedences.
But surely their must have been Sith Lords before him; there is a lot of time that hasnt been covered in the SW universe.
of course! the first sith lords would effectively be those who were banished from the jedi in the schism. however, who is to say they knew of the sith?
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actually sith was an species which met the banished dark side jedi. and they interbreeded together and began the sith empire.
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all the origional sith are long since dead and sith is now a title.
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no it's an name of an organization. darth is a title.
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yes but you understand what i was getting at.
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actually sith was an species which met the banished dark side jedi. and they interbreeded together and began the sith empire.
Im just wondering; was this race of 'Sith' what Marka Ragnos was? Because that would explain the horns....
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Marka Ragnos was a Human-Sith hybrid.
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the sith were red and had red spines all over them. ragnos didn't look like a sith. however, he didn't look like naga sadow, a felloww human-sith hybrid, either. i think ragnos was either corrupted by the dark side to the point it mutated him, or he used sith alchemy.
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probably mutated
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i have to agree, ISD lets alone SSD's would dominate any sith ship, and the star forges emp would not have a long enough range to stop a executer, or come on let alone an eclipse or soveriegn
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sovergn is just an eclipse minus the super laser ;)
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How surprising. Once again, you are wrong, seriously check yourself before you post. Both the Sovereign and Eclipse class dreadnaughts had superlasers
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by superlaser i meant one that could kill a planet i guess i just need to be more descriptive
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I thought that the Sovereign's Super-Laser could destroy plants; I think they were both capable of doing so, but the Eclipse's was so precise it could destroy individual bases without actually destroying the planet itself.
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really? i thought sovergn was for anti ship stuff
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It is-but I am pretty sure it could also destroy planets.
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no it couldn't. the sovereingn was an earlier development. it had a superlaser designed to destroy ships.
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If by earlier development, you mean 10 aby. The laser could penetrate planetary shields and decimate the surface for sure, whether it could completely destroy the planet is unknown
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I have that kind of impression that it doesn't destroy the planet but it makes it inhospitable.
But this is going way out of the topic, again.
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But still, it could do shit to planets.
Back on topic, what should we discuss now? I know, lets talk about the 'legendary' Marka Ragnos.
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Or we could'nt. Locked