Thrawn's Revenge
Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Eldritch66X on July 15, 2017, 09:30:50 PM
-
OK i know here is an idea what if we add special structures for planets that can effect ship production and troop production, since we all know resources are hard to come by for certain factions what if we added structures like ore processing plants and tibanna gas facilities for certain planets and if you control them they can either reduce the cost for building ships or maybe increase its building speed, for starfighters you could add fighter production facilities that could make building individual fighter squadrons cheaper or make building carriers cheaper and for ground troops you can add buildings that can help increase the production for vehicles and and weaponry
-
I think the fear of cluttering the ground build queues will prevent this from being implemented, as there's no support for scrolling the damned build list. It'd be cool, but not particularly necessary, and I believe the mod is about to enter final polishing phases, where further large-scale additions will no longer be performed. A pity, though: it would be very good for the immersion factor to have tibanna gas refineries and quadanium foundries feeding the shipyards... Maybe, if we're VERY lucky, we'll see special structures added to the few remaining ground maps that haven't been completed, but they would presumably be entirely aesthetic. Ship prices can be buffed by installing the faction-dependant corporations on specific worlds (Kuat Drive Yards over Kuat, Sienar Systems over Jaemus, etcetera).
-
Mining facilities are enough. I'd wager they might need to be nerfed because once you control a decent number of planets with large numbers of slots to mass one type of unit production building on so its quick, you can just spam mining facilities on every other planet that doesn't need any fortification. After doing that for awhile you basically have infinite money to throw around.
-
"A pity, though: it would be very good for the immersion factor to have tibanna gas refineries and quadanium foundries feeding the shipyards... Maybe, if we're VERY lucky, we'll see special structures added to the few remaining ground maps that haven't been completed, but they would presumably be entirely aesthetic. Ship prices can be buffed by installing the faction-dependant corporations on specific worlds (Kuat Drive Yards over Kuat, Sienar Systems over Jaemus, etcetera)."
Mwa, ha, ha, ha.... Here's an idea for you! What if they were automatically added with the shipyards, and if they were destroyed but not the shipyard, production would be stopped for a short time? Destroy the tibanna refineries- production 50% slowed, destroying stock pile stations- 75% slowed, and destroying the foundaries as well = production halting for 40 seconds or so. In no particular order.
No new build queues and nothing affecting the interface, just a new aspect of heavy capital shipyards.
On that note, could intelligence reveals show not just enemy units, but what each system is building (assuming the ai doesn't do it instantly?).
-
Actually, that's doable. Main problem: No tibanna gas refinery or quadanium foundry models available in map editor files (much to my sodding disappointment). We can make our own, but it will take time to do. The actual trigger coding for knocking out production is fairly straightforward, though. That part's easy. A harder question may be how these structures would be destroyed without first destroying the space station you wish to affect- the New Republic can see to this, but it's something of an edge-case scenario where this would happen. Adding a feature that's time-intensive to create is generally reserved for things that will see a lot of action. If this was going to be a thing, Corey's team would want to make sure it was worthwhile in terms of how many people would see and use it- if the facilities were modelled, there would be some want to see them explode regularly. Planetary structures aren't the best way to implement that. As space stations there would be a strategic possibility of taking them out without there being a need to engage the more heavily fortified shipyard, ensconced in Golan platforms. In fact, doing that would see a reason to implement your earlier space raid idea- send a few CR90s and Carracks to mess up those stations to abort enemy capital ship manufacture (potentially costing them thousand) and delay or abort death star construction when warned about it. But I will warn you- all this depends on having models for tibanna gas refinery and quadanium foundry space stations, which we don't, and a surplus of Corey's time, which is perpetually short. Great idea, though. Very interesting...
-
Mining facilities are enough. I'd wager they might need to be nerfed because once you control a decent number of planets with large numbers of slots to mass one type of unit production building on so it's quick, you can just spam mining facilities on every other planet that doesn't need any fortification. After doing that for awhile, you basically have infinite money to throw around.
The problem with Nerfing them is on smaller GC's is it can become nigh impossible to build a fleet. The small GC's in EaW RE have this issue where even the AI can't afford to send more than Heroes stacked by walls of Corvettes. I think the Limit of 3 per planet is the is fine the way it is. Once you have a large empire with a lot of resources, you should be able to steamroll. There becomes a point in any RTS title where you hit critical mass, and there is very little chance you are going to lose. Also, ships having upkeep helps to alleviate this problem a bit. I think the current system is fine as it rewards you for aggressively expanding to unify your border into a few choke points so you can build up to conquest the galaxy.
-
"all this depends on having models for tibanna gas refinery and quadanium foundry space stations"
You remember those 3-armed structures that pop up in the back-ground at Kuat? What if some simple crates and containers were added on to them and they were made destructible? It's not much, but could be a useful placeholder. *shrug*
"A harder question may be how these structures would be destroyed without first destroying the space station you wish to affect- the New Republic can see to this, but it's something of an edge-case scenario where this would happen."
(presumably they could be destroyable civilian structures?)
Plus, alot of this is 2.3 rather than 2.2 scale thoughts. I'm not really suggesting anything for the next release. Heaven knows how little time the dev team have already!
Two last things: For the Ai... could a structure be given an invisible marker that says to the Ai 'if you have a small force, prioritise this'? If the Ai knows everything you're building and it has a fleet next to that system, could it be incentivised to go for that system? Presumably one would hope it would see those structures as targettable. Without stealth fleets this seems a minor issue- the foundaries are merely caught in the crossfire of a major engagement. (If stealth fleets were useful then this becomes more problematic. I will think on this and your earlier points on stealth fleet/army problems.)
Nonetheless: Giving the player knowledge that something large is being built next to the front lines is probably the weak point of this idea. It is needed so attacking foundaries has an impact. If it is possible, a random event featuring a shuttle or civvie convoy, and then destroying it ('commander, we found intelligence in the wreckage!') could give the impetus for that intel, but whether the human player can be shown it in the first place is doubtful. A UI change would be needed, and that kind of work would be gargantuan.
Gah! It really is unworkable.....
-
T78: Not unworkable, just difficult. Could be done, however. As a sidenote, my confusion at how an attacker would reach these things was predicated on them being ground structures, where only raid fleets could get at them without blowing up the station you wish to affect. It can be done, but it would need a decent chunk of work, notably making the models. If we get those, maybe further actions down this path can be considered.
But it won't be my baby. I have a map to complete, first and foremost. I'm quite determined to produce a working map before my assistance request thread asking how to get the mapmaker running makes it off the first page :) trouble is they take a little while each. And we need seventy-five of them, apparently. Time for work!
-
This is just a little addendum to your observation that the N.R and Eriadu have stealth fleets- from Corey's playthrough it seems so.
Based on your rightful suspicion that it could get irritating having planets snatched from under your nose, I'd recommend that stealth attacks carry a timer- after that the single ship retreat code kicks in and units are dispersed to you territories. Maybe a function preventing that planet being attacked again and worn down until a period of time has passed. So you can wear someone down in the short time you have, but not have to deal with conquered territory behind the lines.
Once again,, this is non-priority, but a potential anti-frustration feature if needed.
-
T78: The AI doesn't chain attacks against a single planet anyway- and adding the single-unit retreat code, as far as I know, requires writing that functionality into each unit individually, hence us not seeing it planned for every unit- too much effort to implement. I'd love to see it available, as every ship should have the ability to run away, but if it involves several hours of code per unit (and it may very well take days per unit), then we can't really expect it.
-
and adding the single-unit retreat code, as far as I know, requires writing that functionality into each unit individually, hence us not seeing it planned for every unit- too much effort to implement. I'd love to see it available, as every ship should have the ability to run away, but if it involves several hours of code per unit (and it may very well take days per unit), then we can't really expect it.
I had no idea it was this hard to add it!
Actually the SUR code is the same for every unit. We have a generic unit script that gets attached to every ship that looks up the unit type in a library file to determine which other scripts need to be loaded for this unit type. One of the main reasons we're not adding SUR for every unit is that the UI is limited to displaying two abilities. So the units that get it are primarily those that have a free slot left.
-
Forgive me for asking, but are there many units with two abilities?
Incredibly stupid/crazy thought: holding the shift key allows a different ability to be used despite the same button being clicked. Can one button be allowed to do two things?
-
Unfortunately we have no control over hotkeys, that's all hardcoded.
-
Oh Petroglyph...
I shall ignore the silly fantasy in my head of writing to them and getting them to help with this. If if I wasn't ignored, it would probably result in a cease and desist.
-
Oh Petroglyph...
I shall ignore the silly fantasy in my head of writing to them and getting them to help with this. If if I wasn't ignored, it would probably result in a cease and desist.
While you're at it, ask them why there's no shortcut for the pause function, would you ;>?
-
Tom: I know, right? Seriously; space-bar means pause. It's an genre standard that goes back years. Hell, I'd settle for P being pause. But no...
-
Wow i didn't think i would get this much of a response.
OK for me i don't have a real great understanding of legends ( only basic common knowledge) but what do know is that everything went to shit when palpatine died.
to me think it would make sense if certain planets had specific buildings they could (not faction specific) whether it be industrial centers, important commerce sectors, or resources, because the imperials turned into rabid dogs trying to get a piece of meat of a dead animal, it would make sense if this was established because it would mean it would be harder to hit critical mass, due lack of resources, prices could double on equipment, troop recruitment could become low due to the lack on high population centers, ships could take 2 or 3 times longer to build and prices could be harder to maintain due to upkeep, fighter facilities would become crucial due the need of fighter coverage
-
It's not a terrible idea, but it would just add an inch of depth for not much gameplay value.
-
well the only reason i ever suggested this is because we need to find a way to slow down factions from hitting critical mass
-
Why didn't you say so? That would be fantastic if a solution could be thought of. It would mean you have more variety in units and have to do more with less. Ideally, you would still be able to use cheap units late into the game because stronger units are cost prohibitive.
-
IMO what's missing in EAW is some basic upkeep cost, meaning the larger your fleet gets, the less income you will have. Also limiting the number on mining facilities in the galaxy or at least planet-wise. Let's see what the guys thought of for the final release of 2.2 :>.
-
Both of what you said is already included in 2.2 demo. You can now build only 3 mining facilities on a planet + there is an upkeep system present.
-
Both of what you said is already included in 2.2 demo. You can now build only 3 mining facilities on a planet + there is an upkeep system present.
Yes, I vaguely remember listening to one of Corey's videos and him mentioning they improved a bit on that and balanced it even more though. Also interesting to me is how the overall GC's all look like and how big they are, since, if one would expand e.g. on the planet-specific builds mentioned here, the placement and availability of production centers would be core to balancing them right and if an overall rework of the income model regarding all factions should end in the same for everyone or in a more asymmetrical one, representing the dwindling resources of the remnant over time and the initial struggle to acquire any credits for the rising NR etc. - balancing is hell :D. TBH though, I was more referring to the original EAW with my statement, ICW has already improved so much on all the shortcomings and unexplored possibilities vanilla unfortunately had ;P.
-
Oh, is the end-goal to prevent the player getting out-of-control powerful so quickly? Because I am rushing to take over worlds until my fleet cap and economy right up until the enemy AI breaks and they suddenly go from sending five-Praetor doom fleets to nothing at all as (I'm guessing) the AI no longer feels it can breach your defences. Even when you remove your defences, because you want them to re-capture the planet and start offering a credible threat again- makes me wonder what the AI is doing when they hold four or five worlds, but good worlds, like Jaemus, Muunilinst, and Yaga Minor but simply stop producing ships. I've watched them, you know- they will sit there, on Admiral, for several hours without building one solitary ship. They definitely had the eco.
I can think of a reasonably easy, if not especially satisfying, method of controlling that OP-ness. Borrow from Stellaris its mechanic of increasing costs linearly based on the number of worlds you control, using a single modifier multiplier that kicks in around twenty-five worlds and begins to reduce your income/increase your upkeep (depending on how that's implemented) or increase all unit buy costs. This is a cheap and nasty way to model your larger empire requiring more funds for garrison maintenance, force support and basing, and civil engineering. Though, it's... Cheap and nasty, like I said.
I'd love to get a peek into the AI for GC that makes it straight-up die and essentially cease all functions when they're low on worlds. Possibly attacking the problem from the other side would work better- make the weakened factions fight harder with buffs, more story missions to give them rewards, give them a fairly serious economy boost, etcetera. This would make the AI less of a waiting target and more of a working small force when they've lost a few worlds. As it stands, it takes capturing around half of the Alignment's territory to break them entirely. The Empire of the Hand will stop functioning at around five worlds too- it makes the end of GCs just uninteresting and threatless. If we fix that, I don't think reigning in the player will need as much of a priority, and it might keep the fights a little bigger in the mid-to-late game.
What do you guys think? Most of you have more experience than I do on this title; you may be better informed than I.
-
Alright I'm reviving this topic because it needs to be brought up more
There has to be a way to make the game a labor harder and force the player to really look at there production and resource capability.
I've already mentioned Tibanna gas and ore plants to help cheapen the cost of building units
I would like to see it made harder acquire equipment for troops because we all know that due to the empires collapse nearly everything was seized and split amongst the various warlords, I hate how every factions has this inherent ability to train, arm and equip soldiers with weapons and armor and ammo, here's the big one, MEDICAL SUPPLIES, where are they getting all the medicine to help troops.
i find it hard to believe every faction has the ability to pay for all the materials needed to build war machines and keep them operational. These tanks, walkers and mobilezed vehicles need ammo, materials for repair and trained men to to operate them.
I think what needs to happen is the reintroduction of planetary effects, so certain planets have these effects ( I don't want to go through all of the effects these planets could have we would be here all day if so)
I would really like some feedback on this, I know some people don't want all this but I do and I know others do as well my end goal of suggesting this is because I find the game to easy and I hate to say it repetitive I would like a new layer of detail that will really force me to pay attention to what's needed to expand and maintain my empire.
I would also the say that I'm not trying to bash the mod team at all I would like to thank you for all your hard work and attention you've put into this, you guys have gone above and beyond what anyone would expect a mod team to do.
-
Much of that suggestion already exists to some extent or another in the 2.2 demo. Upkeep costs, reflecting maintenance and resupply needs, already exist, as do limited-use economic buildings that need to be strategically placed for maximum benefit. But the kind of detailed support requirements you suggest I think is going a bit too far. Units already require certain structures to be built to obtain them, a number of buildings require another building to be built first already - what is to be gained by also requiring bacta production centers or durasteel smelters to get certain units beyond additional micromanagement? A game like Hearts of Iron is built around making something like that interesting, but it does so by requiring the player to balance the interplay of various systems (civil production vs military production vs resource availability vs trade partners vs technology vs battlefield necessity vs...) that Empire at War simply isn't designed to be capable of mimicking to an interesting degree.
Each faction has a special building that will reduce production costs for a number of key units - while planets don't give faction-wide bonuses the way they do in vanilla EaW, I prefer the game without such. They feel too arcadey, and don't really fit the source material, as controlling Yavin IV didn't make all Rebel pilots better at their jobs in the EU. More problematically, they contribute to snowballing in a game that is already heavily biased in favor of the biggest snowball, because the more territory you control the more powerful your forces become and the harder it becomes for the smaller factions to gain ground.
-
As Pali says, we have already done a ton in both the demo, and then even more in the actual 2.2 build to limit the economy more and have some slightly different avenues to grow it, including new economic structures. The result is that in most GCs, it takes a hell of a long time to reach the point where you have more credits than you can use, if ever. This has been covered quite a bit in other threads, updates, and videos. We've also talked about how economic changes have to be progressive- if you change everything all at once, the mod will not just take forever, but you run the risk of completely fucking up balance and playability more generally. If the changes in 2.2 aren't enough to limit economic capacity, we'll continue to adjust them and make additional changes where possible.
You also have to keep in mind the limits of the game engine. We aren't exactly unlimited in terms of options.
I would like to see it made harder acquire equipment for troops because we all know that due to the empires collapse nearly everything was seized and split amongst the various warlords, I hate how every factions has this inherent ability to train, arm and equip soldiers with weapons and armor and ammo, here's the big one, MEDICAL SUPPLIES, where are they getting all the medicine to help troops.
What does that actually mean in terms of gameplay? Are you suggesting new resource types or something?
I think what needs to happen is the reintroduction of planetary effects, so certain planets have these effects ( I don't want to go through all of the effects these planets could have we would be here all day if so)
The planetary effects don't really have anything to do with the economy, except the 1) "this planet has an increased credit output" effect, which isn't an effect and just a tooltip- there's plenty of planets in the mod which have higher or lower than average credit outputs, and the game says directly what they're putting out and 2) "this planet gives a cost reduction to unit x" abilities, which we've worked in a shipyard companies, which tend to be more flexible. Everything else is combat bonus relatyed.
There's also an issue with making mechanics in the mod too dependent on planet abilities, even if planet abilities in EaW were useful in whatever way you're hoping for. There are roughly 250 possible planets in the mod, 300 if you include those slated for FotR, and those planets appear with varying frequencies spread across 19 GCs and 8 playable factions that control different positions and different amounts of territory. Getting consistency with planet abilities as a core feature in something small and localized like Stars Align or Isard's Revenge and still work in a galaxy-wide scenario like Art of War or Empire's End is, quite frankly, impossible. That's why we typically go with things that are more flexible, like the Capital buildings (Senate, Rancor Base, etc) and shipyard companies instead of potentially giving the New Republic 17 planets that happen to buff their units by 10% damage and Armour or something while giving the other factions absolutely nothing, depending on the GC (though, those bonuses have nothing to do with the economy, but you haven't actually said what the bonuses you're thinking about what actually do).
-
Here are a few basic ideas of what the planetary effects could be
1. Industrial worlds: give 10% reduction to the building of vehicles and infantry (will produce there equipment)
2. The tibanna and mining planets: obviously will give a boost to money, they give a 5%, 10%, or 15% reduction in the production of ships
3. Low/high population planets: these planets can also effect the costs of infantry, vehicles, and ships; say a planets has low population it will cost more find and recruit people and the opposite will be said for high population planets.
4. Special planets: these planets will be places like thyferra ( insert a few other ideas here) they will give there own specific bonuses
Like i said these only few basic ideas I didn't want to give a bunch of over blown ideas, and I wanted to leave roommfor other people to throw there ideas in.
-
The primary problem with that, though, is still scaling. If you don't have it stack, then the bonus isn't really a huge impact on how the economy actually plays. If it does stack, then it really doesn't work at all. We have to have stuff be at least baseline affordable with smaller planets, and generally you're looking for ways to make the player still have to manage their money as they expand, not make it easier for the larger factions. If I have 9-10 industrial planets on Art of War, for example, I'm then paying nothing or next to nothing for any units, while smaller factions are getting progressively and disproportionately more and more unable to field anything, without really adding any extra level of economic management, making the game easier and easier as you go further in. You then have the disparity between GCs like Art of War, where there's 120 planets and you will have a ton of bonuses, and GCs like the 20-30 planet ones which will have next to none. Abilities like that are, above all else, non-interactive- you're not adding any extra level of planning or management- conquering a new planet or deciding to expand your fleet doesn't require any sort of planning, it just makes it easier and easier to snowball as you take more planets with more automatic bonuses.
-
:( damn well
I just wish there was some way that the economy in this game could be revolutionized, because if it was it could stop people from hitting critical mass so early and really force you to think about your next move and wether or not its possible monetarily
-
:( damn well
I just wish there was some way that the economy in this game could be revolutionized, because if it was it could stop people from hitting critical mass so early and really force you to think about your next move and wether or not its possible monetarily
Critical mass like that could only come like late gameish. Just with the way things have been reworked. even if you end up with a ton of credits. Once you spend them there would be little you could do to get back to that point in a rather quick manner
-
Yeah, really Rogue, while splitting existing income between different types of new sources is one thing we're doing for a bit of variety, finding new ways to get resources and make stuff cheaper isn't exactly what's needed to solve the problem you're talking about, especially when it's tied so strictly to a single specific planet and any given faction can stack it for days, which is why we prefer leaning to the building route with that kind of income ability.
What's more important is finding ways to limit the growth of income as you expand, and having things to spend them on as you go through which disproportionately impact larger and more connected factions. Even with just the changes we've made already limiting structures and adding upkeep, it took me until week 250ish in Art of War before I started outproducing what my credit income was, and we do have a few other ideas we're gonna be playing with as well.
-
Would be possible to make it give you a debuff to your economy when conquer a certain amount of planets
When the game registers what planets are yours after seizing it from another faction surely there's a way to maybe lower income once you control say 20 planets your economy might decrease by 10% due to it costing more to maintain it politically
-
There's a separate, slightly easier thing for the game to track that we're going to be trying to make it scale more directly with planets.
-
I see
-
Huh, I had no idea upkeep was present in the 2.2 demo. I think that's why I had a more sensible time with it, economically-speaking :)
I'm sure the team has had this feedback before but I like the new upkeep system. Definitely keep it!