Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Meyer on October 14, 2007, 11:52:16 AM
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who came closest in your mind? My answer is Thrawn.
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The Emporer, Thrawn did a wonderful job but the NR were still stronger than the rebs were after Hoth
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Statistically, the Emperor was closest, since at that point the Rebel Alliance was very weak. But i feel that Thrawn was closest to destroying them, since his strategy was far more successful/destructive than Palpatine's.
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yeah. Palpatine just trusted to super weapons like Death Stars. and both were destroyed. Thrawn would have defeated the rebels if he hadn't been killed in Bilbringi. And had Thrawn win the battle of Bilbringi the NR would have been weaker than rebels after Hoth.
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Well, the rebels wouldnt have been weaker than Hoth after Bilbringi.. Sure, they would have suffered a massive defeat - but they would still have more resources and support than after Hoth.
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I think that many would have withdrew their support after that. and losing a whole sector fleet is quite disastrous. and you have to remember the internal problems between Ackbar and Fey'lya. Fey'lya would have propably wanted to get someone else to lead the fleet after that defeat.
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Even if a large number did withdraw their support, the NR would still have been in a much better position than the Alliance was after Hoth.
Im not all that sure that Ackbar would have survived the battle to command the fleet afterwards, even if Fey'lya had been willing to let him.. Although if he did survive, i would have thought the other members of the council would still support Ackbar - since he was pretty much the best tactician they had.
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And you have to remember, after bilbringi the NR would still have had actual shipyards and planets and fleets, unlike the alliance after Hoth
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well alliance had none of those before Hoth either so. And you have to remember that remaining NR fleets were already fighting against Thrawn or imperial warlords all over the Galaxy. And wasn't it Thrawn's intention to let Ackbar survive the battle and act as an messenger of doom? And you have to remeber all the chaos there were conserning Thrawn and his attacks.
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But at Hoth the Alliance lost a lot of their heavy gear in the rushed evacuation.
Yes a lot of the NR forces were committed in other engagements, but there is always something left.
Yes, it was Thrawn's intention to let Ackbar's cruiser survive the battle and act as messenger - But (as Arbiter put it):
You know how imperials are
"I destroyed the great Admiral Fishsticks, reward me!"
In the height of battle, it would easily possible for the Imperials to become overzealous and forget about that directive. And gifted as Thrawn is, he cant be everywhere at once, and doesnt have direct control of all his officers and crews.
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good points you made. but after Hoth rebels lost only land gear. at Bilbringi they would have lost large number of their heavy star ships, including many MCCs. and without fleet to transport, the land gear is useless as it can be blasted from orbit. and at Bilbringi I doubt Thrawn would have permitted his troops to act on themselves and forgetting his plan.
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But its not like the NR used all of their ships at Bilbringi
Sure it was most if not all of their offensive fleet elements, but they still had fleets
And also consider this is about who came closest, even if they had lost at Bilbringi, the NR would still have easily ten times the forces and resources of the alliance after Hoth
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but also different tactics, enemies and problems. The numbers aren't only factor on this equasion. during rebellion they had one enemy and guergilla tactics. now they have many enimies, including warlords and worlds they have to defend.
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But they were still stronger, after Hoth was the lowest of the low not counting the beginning
After Hoth the only thing the Allaince had was pretty much a small fleet
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All the officers adored Thrawn! Only a few would ever disobey his orders, no matter how abstract. Zahn demonstrated it many times in his books.
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and even if NR was stronger adter bilbringi than rebels after hoth they didn't face as good commander after hoth as Thrawn.
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But thats not the point, what might have happened is theory and prediction, none of that really matters, and the NR won at Bilbringi might i remind you
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yeah. but this topic isn't about ho won bilbringi. this is about who imperial leader came closest to destroy NR during civil war. otherwise it would be YV who actually destroyed it.
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We are talking about Imperials.
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yeah. but this topic isn't about ho won bilbringi. this is about who came closest to destroy NR during civil war. otherwise it would be YV who actually destroyed it.
Exactly, its about who came closest, and I just dont see how after Hoth wasn't the weakest moment
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meyer, change your F***** name
uits offensive
it going to get you kicked (i hope) you superspammer
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you need to chill out kid, the only thing that is offensive is you
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after hoth was the rebellion had a small fleet few assets and few soldiers
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I dont know of a time they were weaker (besides the beginning, which doesnt really count)
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meyer, change your F***** name
uits offensive
it going to get you kicked (i hope) you superspammer
His name is not offensive. You need to stay on topic and stop insulting Meyer, or YOU'll be the one who gets kicked.
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rebels and NR had numerous low points. one being after Hoth, one after Thrawn campaign. and many more.
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I wouldn't consider after the Thrawn campaign a low point, after the won they made out pretty good
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I dont mean to be off topic, (you can delete this post if you like), but why is "Meyer" offensive?
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because the poster was a morn nuff said ignore him and he'll crawl under a rock and leve us the hell alone
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I wouldn't consider after the Thrawn campaign a low point, after the won they made out pretty good
10% of troops KIA, 30% WIA. Not so good in my mind. 40 % of their troops were out of action after Thrawn campaign. and on top of that comes reborn Emperor's attack.
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I dont understand your acronyms.
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Yeah, but they took out alot of the Empires remaining resources as well
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KIA=Killed In Action
WIA=Wounded In Action
well the fleet under Thrawn wasn't even half of the remaining imperial forces, most were on Byss under Palpatine.
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Not just the fleet, but also territory, after Thrawns death the NR was able to get alot of systems previously held by the Empire
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true. but when Palpatine launched his attack they lost much more back to the Empire. so that balances it a great deal.
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But that didn't really matter right after the Thrawn campaign
But we need to return more to the topic
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At Endor there wasn't as much of an imminent doom as there was at Bilbringi. But we must not forget Yavin.
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but Yavin was a victory for the rebels. And even if Tarkin had destroyed Yavin IV, the rebels would still have existed as Mon Mothma, for example, wasn't there.
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But dodona, their greatest strategist was there
im sure that would severely hamper their plans
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But Ackbar was elsewhere. He would have taken command in the event that Dodonna was killed or captured.
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I don't think they would have been able to carry on, due to heavy loss of personnel and supplies.
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dodonna and ackbar would of been different and im sure there were many events done by dodonna which saved the fleet
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not after DS was destroyed. little later Dodonna was captured by imperial forces. so had he dies wouldn't have matteres much, in fact he was believed dead by rebels.
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he didnt die
he was prisoner on lusankya
he didnt die until 24 ABY
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I know that. but after their retreat from Yavin Iv, rebels thought he was dead. But when Corran Horn was taken prisoner by Ysanne Isard, he found out that Dodonna was. And when Horn escaped he told it to everyone else.
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so for the majority of the GCW, he was in prison
it wouldnt have caused any difference
but im sure that much of the supplies of the rebels were there
plus, solo, leia and luke were crucial
luke and han would have died if the death star destroyed Yavin 4
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but they weren't on Yavin at that time.
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Leia was
And Luke and Han were outside of a battle station with 7000 starfighters, not such good odds
Not to mention the fact that if they had destroyed Yavin, Luke and Han would probably already be dead anyway
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no if lukes torpedos just hadn't destroyrd the station. and Tarkin didn't see them as a threat so he didn't send any fighters at all. the fighters that attacked rebels were all from Vader's personal squadron.
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Leia was
And Luke and Han were outside of a battle station with 7000 starfighters, not such good odds
Not to mention the fact that if they had destroyed Yavin, Luke and Han would probably already be dead anyway
thus destroying the rebellion effectively
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but it never happened. sadly. and that wouldn't have destroyed the rebellion. they still had a fleet.
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1.why sadly?
2. what fleet? is there any evidence of a fleet
the fleet would be blind strategically
i dont think they had ackbar by then
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1. because I support the Empire.
2. yes they did have a fleet and numerous other bases. Yavin just was one of the largest but the loss/destrution of Yavin wasn't so big blow to the rebels. they would have resurfaced. I mean Hoth was more important than Yavin and look how they survived that.
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But the rebellion was much more powerful at Hoth, and i dont know what other big bases or fleets the rebellion had at that time (and by big bases i mean anything other than outposts and safehouses)
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hmm
im the only pro-rebellion
ill hide somewhere :(
out of question, what do you think of mandlalorians?
i think they are cool
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Start a new thread.
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out of question, what do you think of mandlalorians?
i think they are cool
try to stay on topic
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so I should add Tarkin on the list then. Is that what you want vadereclipse?
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was tarkin really a big loss for the empire though?
i mean they probably saved lives through retreat
he wouldnt retreat out of an asteroid field
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what I meant by my question was that should I add Tarkin to the lsit of who get closest about destroying rebels/NR.
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well he didnt get close to destroying the allianace he got close to destroying an alliance base
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my thoughts exactly. but there are some in here who might think that if he had destroyed the yavin base he had destroyed the rebellion.
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All he would of done was destroy a significant base for the rebellion maybe in the long term after that he would be successful due to downed mural but really the destruction of yavin would just be another version of hoth
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finally someone who agrees with me about that.
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well he didnt get close to destroying the allianace he got close to destroying an alliance base
Also consider though he was the one to really push the death star project, and if he and the death star had survived, then not only would more rebel sympathisers get blown up, i doubt many planets would be willing to join the rebellion if that risked getting their entire planet blown up
So you could say he got pretty close, two torpedoes stopped him though
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ok come on now, sidious by far, he was like less than a second away from destroying yavin 4 with the death star, everyone in the rebellion was pretty much there. and sidious has a much larger following than thrawn, thrawn deserved the respect, but sidious commanded it, and he got it, in a large part due to battle meditation
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what battle meditation?
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Beats me.
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Battle Meditation (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation) is a Force power. Used by Palpatine, Yoda, and now Darth Caedus (Jacen).
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ok come on now, sidious by far, he was like less than a second away from destroying yavin 4 with the death star, everyone in the rebellion was pretty much there. and sidious has a much larger following than thrawn, thrawn deserved the respect, but sidious commanded it, and he got it, in a large part due to battle meditation
Sidious wasn't destroying anything with the DS. He wasn't even there! and rebel fleet and Mon Mothma weren't on Yavin. So it would have not been the end of rebellion.
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Thrawn did more damage to the Rebel Alliance/New Republic with the shattered remains of the Imperial Fleet than Palpatine ever managed with the whole might of the Empire. Even with the 180 Katana Dreadnaughts and Clone army he created, it was still (by all accounts) only a fraction of the size of the Imperial Navy at the height of its former glory.
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and still he nearly defeated them. and emperor had about 25.000 ISDs at his disposal and not to mention numerous super weapons.
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most with major flaws.
DS1- exhaust port
DS2-unfinished/huge resource drain
sun crusher- exception
World devestator- hackable
eclipse- like any other ship, destroyable with enough force.
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the empire had soo many ships, it would've been unstoppable with battle meditation thrown in.
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Battle Meditation is the reason Empire lost the battle of Endor. When Emperor died his BM stopped and the Imperial Fleet wasn't able to do anything well. Emperor had used it too much. So much that the fleet couldn't survive without it.
There's how Thrawn explained it.
Thrawn: "The Rebels did indeed fight better, but not because of any special abilities or training. They fought better than the Fleet because the Emperor was dead. You were there, Captain
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I just said Emperor because I cant be bothered explaining why I chose Thrawn. Palpatine has justification in the movies whilst Thrawn has justification in the books, and I havent read the books, so I am not going to choose him over information that is known by others.
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thrawn was severely outnumbered, but managed to nearly outmanoeuvre the N|R. had numbers been the sam, thrawn would have won.
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dark force really gave thrawn an edge though.
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Thrawn did do that, didnt he?
The fact of the matter is, however, that he didnt have the advantage of numbers, and so he coems short of Palpatine.
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but Palpatine had numbers and still wasn't even close to defeat the alliance.
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palpatine failed to consider tactical approaches in the same way. had he moved his star destroyers in, then it is almost certain that the rebels would have been destroyed. but he had to put on a show.
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palpatine was too confident in 1 strike kills
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Doesn't matter, Palpatine got closest at Yavin when the rebellion was still weak. The NR still had alot of sectors and fleets when facing Thrawn
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I guess. I dont know....Thrawn was a btter strategist, and if he ahd the numbers, he would have done much better than Palpatine, hence I think Thrawn is a much better leader than Palpatine ever was.
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That has to do with what?
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The battle that Trawn died at wasn't the fate of the NR, but it decided where the tide was turned. Didn't Thrawn have a backup plan for that battle?
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umm thrawn was also turned on by his own people
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I don't know if Thrawn had backup plan. maybe you're referring to those 2 Golan II battle stations that were cloaked. But if Rukh hadn't murdered Thrawn, the Empire would have won the battle. and had taken out two sector fleets from the rebellion. that would have been quite a blow for them and their capability to fight back.
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possibly even fatally crippling them
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Maybe. Meyer, I was not talking about that. I was saying wouldn't he have had a plan that others would have followed if he died. He would have at least prepared for the destruction of the Chimaera. (Which I know did not happen.)
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why didn't thrawn have the chimaera in foc?
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because Thrawn didn't move to Chimaera before 9 ABY. At the time he commanded Admonitor
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thank you
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umm thrawn was also turned on by his own people
the chiss disowned him as one of their own. they did not become hostile. the eoth would be stupid if the chiss wanted to kill thrawn.
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not the chiss his norghi assassin/body guards
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I wonder....why did they kill him?
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rukh found out that the empire were not helping honoghr.
and thrawn was a chiss, not a noghri, you idiot. hardly his people.
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they were his people in the sense that a general commands his people...
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A race of warriors that you lie to make death squads and bodyguards are not 'your people'
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they were supposed to be fighting for/under him. that makes them his people.
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they were sort of his people, he commanded them
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Technically they are his people vadereclipse; I know you are blunt, but it is not necessary to call him an idiot. He is right, if only marginally, because they are people that served under him, hence they are his people.
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Noghri were not Thrawn's people. they were his soldiers and slaves. there is a big difference in that.
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Actually it is true; it is a technicality, but the people who served under him are technically his people. Not like say, he is their god and they are his people, but they are nonetheless his people because they obeyed him.
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so if I obey say my teacher, that makes me and all other students her/his people? NO.
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It's different; Thrawn actually ruled them, and they willingly gave themselves to him in service. Your example was conviluted and not pertaining to what the meaning I ascertained was. A very poor example there Meyer.
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not really. I also have to obey my teacher. which from a point of view means that s/he rules me. but the who are your people isn't decided by who do you command. it's decided from where you come from. Thrawn was a Chiss. so other Chiss were his people.
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Yes but did you willingly go over into service? You do not serve your teacher, hence you are not his/her people along with your classmates. Being a group of people that willingly serve their 'master' is being that person's people. We are not bonded to teachers, hence we are not their 'people'.
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you just don't get it do you.
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I do get it. But it seems you dont get what I am saying. It is a technicality that the Noghri under Thrawn are his people; I never said it was actually true. Technicality. Does that imply anything to you? Technicality.
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Okay I think we're done here
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