Thrawn's Revenge

Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Eugenes on October 14, 2015, 07:46:15 PM

Title: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 14, 2015, 07:46:15 PM

Imperial Civil War is so much better than the base game, but there is still one thing that i miss from FoC, those huge space stations (Cardan-class,...).
I have always felt that the shipyards of ICW were a little blank. So there is my idea, bring back to their former glory those old space stations
and use the shipyards as secondary structure like the Golan Defence Station. 

A shipyard could be built instead of a Golan Plateform(max1), the shipyard level available depending of the planet.
A shipyard can give a time cost reduction bonus for building ship, the bonus and the ship class affected depending of the shipyard lvl.
A space station can give a small credits income bonus, the bonus depending of the space station lvl who depend of the planet.
The differents Imperial factions can use the Cardan-class station, the EotH the underworld station, New Republic and Hapes the Rebels station.
A ship can be unlocked by a combination of space station and shipyard.
E.g. Imperial Remnant
        Station lvl 1: starfighter, Lancer frigate
   Station lvl 1 + shipyard lvl 1: Carrack Cruiser, Escort Carrier
   Station lvl 2 + shipyard lvl 1: Strike Cruiser, Dreadnought Heavy Cruiser, Vindicator Cruiser
   Station lvl 3 + shipyard lvl 2: Acclamator, Venator, Victory I-II
   Station lvl 4 + shipyard lvl 3: Star Destroyer...
   Station lvl 5 + shipyard lvl 3: Star Dreadnought

I want to incorporate these kind of changes into my own submod of ICW but i thought that maybe someone will like the idea.
Thank you for the feedbacks and have a nice day.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Grimnak on October 14, 2015, 08:08:04 PM

While they were fun game-play wise, I believe they were taken out in the mod because they were not technically canon.

I could be wrong about that, but I don't remember every planet having a space station in the lore.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 14, 2015, 08:32:13 PM

In the Vanilla game, you can build a space station (lvl1 to 5) on each planet, the max level of the space station depending of the planet.
Maybe Cardan-class space station are not technically canon, but i guess that the shipyard of ICW are not canon either.
Also, of which canon are we talking?  The expanded universe who i think include EaW FoC or the movies canon universe in which now Thrawn doesnt exist at all?

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Pali on October 14, 2015, 11:33:19 PM

ICW and Ascendancy are both based off the EU/Legends canon, though some liberties are taken when necessary (the EotH's lineup was largely invented by the team, for example).  Still, in that canon, Golans are pretty much the only battle stations around, and shipyards themselves weren't armed - they were always protected by ships or Golans.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: kucsidave on October 15, 2015, 04:48:07 AM

Quote from: Pali on October 14, 2015, 11:33:19 PM

ICW and Ascendancy are both based off the EU/Legends canon, though some liberties are taken when necessary (the EotH's lineup was largely invented by the team, for example).  Still, in that canon, Golans are pretty much the only battle stations around, and shipyards themselves weren't armed - they were always protected by ships or Golans.

Pretty much. Though there could have been some variety. Like the Republic could get that XQ station from Ascendancy. They could be used as fighter/bomber spawners like the Hand's Brask-class. The model and texture already exists after all.
I would say the role as a hangar because in it's origins in the X-wing game series they were basically used to launch fighters and bombers for local defense duties.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Slornie on October 15, 2015, 01:08:14 PM

We did originally have the shipyards as an addition to the vanilla star bases but it didn't work particularly well (the AI doesn't understand it).  The star bases in EAW were designed as all-in-one space defence and production centres so all we've really done is separate those two functions into shipyards (which still retain the automatic garrisons) and armed defence platforms like Golans, both of which also have more canonical basis than the vanilla structures.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 15, 2015, 09:34:37 PM

Hi, what i was trying to say is that EaW Foc are part of the EU/Legends canon as every official Star Wars games, books, etc..
Just check the history section of this page http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cardan-class_space_station, i think that it give a solid
background for the Cardan-class station.  Anyway my goal wasn't to start a debate on what is canon or not, but to use this thread for doing some
thinkering and develop this idea so that maybe i include this feature in my own submod. 
The way that i see it is that each kind of space structure have a different role.

Starbase (e.g. Cardan-class)
These space stations have many purposes; they serve as command center, resupplying and refuelling station, starfighters factory,
dockyard and repair station, space worker housing, trading hub, trainning center...  (Its very important to have infrastructures for supporting those epic fleets)
They have a standardized modular design easily upgradable, they can be lightly armed (few turbo and laser)
In game they can give an income and a population bonus.
In space they spawn starfighter(bomber) at lvl 1 plus some other ships at greater lvl.

Shipyard
They serve as non-armed assembling platform for ships. They are not upgradable but additional(e.g. you can build on Kuat the 3 types of shipyards).
In game they unlock certain ship class and give a time cost reduction to certain ships.
In space they spawn only one ship at a time, no starfighter. (e.g. a lvl 1 shipyard can spawn only one lancer)

Golan Defence Plateform
Big space station with lots of guns. They are not upgradable but additional.
In space they spawn starfighter(bomber).

Quote

We did originally have the shipyards as an addition to the vanilla star bases but it didn't work particularly
well (the AI doesn't understand it).

Do you have more detail?  I think that if shipyards are additional and not upgradable it will work well,
AI always build lots of Golans since they have illimited credits.

So do you like the idea, do you find it feasible or do you have your own suggestions?

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Corey on October 15, 2015, 10:32:37 PM

As others have said, it's a system we've used before and ultimately removed because it does not work well within the context of EaW, because the non-military side simply isn't there. The roles you list as possibilities for a space station really aren't relevant in EaW, certainly not for something that has to be the central structure.

Quote

These space stations have many purposes; they serve as command center, resupplying and refuelling station, starfighters factory,
dockyard and repair station, space worker housing, trading hub, trainning center...  (Its very important to have infrastructures for supporting those epic fleets)

Yes, it is very important to have infrastructure to support the fleets, but that's not something you can reflect with the roles available in EaW. In a game with more flexibility or areas of focus (even Sins would be better) they could serve SOME role, but in EaW you're really just looking at defense and production. It's the reason ships like the Altor and Alaria, which serve almost a pure utility role in Ascendancy almost never get translated into ICW unless we co-opt their storage space as fighter capacity.

Defense-wise the Golans are, and should be, the best option; a Golan II-III, even I, would have to be much better armed than a station primarily aimed at utility would be, and that's the role they do have.

Production-wise, the shipyards are shipyards. A utility station with no construction facilities really doesn't make sense for production, and it's the only thing you NEED shipyards for; taking that role away from them negates their usefulness as well. They also make just as much if not more sense as the source of space garrisons.

Space structure slot-wise, it also makes far more sense to have the shipyards be in the station slot; otherwise to get to a capital shipyard, you're filling three whole slots that you now cannot use for defense, when the planets that realistically should have the opportunities for the most protection are the shipyard planets; if you were to guess where the most Golan IIIs would be found in the Empire, planets like Kuat, Fondor and Bilbringi would be right up there. In-game, the planets with the most value are those with high credit/population production, and those with ship/vehicle production, and you're cutting off half of them from at least half of their slots (more than 6 space slots is very uncommon in the mod, I don't know if we even go that high) if you want to actually get that production.

This means that, as you suggest, population and income are the roles left for them. But then let's look at what this means for what they actually DO in the "station" slot in the game and with upgrades. They're either trade ports or population centers, in which case they really shouldn't be armed very well, especially when Golans exist, as I already said. Production wise, they can't do anything since that's the sole reason for having shipyards and these wouldn't and don't actually have any production facilities. The SOLE things they can grant are galactic population and income. Is that really worth a multi-tier upgradeable slot? Both of the other possibilities, having the shipyards and even Golans in that slot make more sense and would gain more from it. In EaW it was passable because neither of those other types exist, so you end up with this single base that had to do everything, whereas when you add the proper-role fillers, you can remove the less plausible and redundant roles.  If you want a structure providing income and population, rather than re-implementing EaW stations which have a severe lack of identity for a game like EaW in a way that they're actual role isn't worth the slot, use the Golan Space Colonies (which actually DID have a population living on them, and a tax base) as secondary options for space structures (something I've wanted to do in the past but have not because we never had the models at a point where I was happy with them, and also because having too many ways to beef up the population counts would exacerbate the freeze; if anything I'd use them as a sneaky way to cut down the gross population unless they're heavily invested in).

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Katarnstar on October 18, 2015, 04:00:06 PM

Question: How can I add laser cannons (Corellian Corvette/Lancer Frigate) weapons on to the space stations, too provide some point-defense protection again the odd fight group?

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 20, 2015, 09:03:43 PM

Indeed EaW is very limited and offer only few possibilities as roles for the structures or units.  Where in GC structures can give income, give population,
do production or defence; in battle it is even worst with only defence and production (spawning).  It is true that there is no way of showing the supporting role
of a space station in game (resupplying, refuelling, repairing), but we can easily imagine that these task are done off-screen (after all ships always start
battle at full health) and the only way of representing this is with the population value (which i see as a mix of manpower and material ressources available for
supporting your army/navy).  In ICW, population can only be increased by capturing new planets and each one give plently of population (45 for Kuat), so
there is indeed no need for a new pop-increasing space structure.  But let say that i decrease the pop value of each planet (e.g. 25 for Kuat) and give a pop
value of 4/starbase lvl (so 4 to 20).  That way, the usage of space stations become more relevant and you have now to build your military infrastructure, a
point that i like.  (in vanilla FoC Kuat give 5 pop and the starbases give 10 to 17)

I was not very specific in my last post about what space stations could do in-game (GC, battles), so i'll try to be more clear.
   
Starbase (type Cardan-class)
  They have a standardized upgradable modular design (they really looks that way).
  In GC they can give 4 population by the level of the starbase (4 to 20) for representing the off-screen resupplying, refuelling, repairing roles.
  They also serve as base shipyard (see Table).
  In space they are lightly armed with only few turbolaser and dual laser cannon.   
  Complement;  lvl 1: 2 TIE Fighter, 2 TIE Bomber, 1 Lancer
                            lvl 2: 2 TIE Fighter, 2 TIE Bomber, 1 Lancer, 1 Carrack
                            lvl 3: 2 TIE Fighter, 2 TIE Bomber, 1 TIE Interceptor, 2 Lancer, 1 Carrack
                            lvl 4: 2 TIE Fighter, 2 TIE Bomber, 2 TIE Interceptor, 2 Lancer, 2 Carrack
                            lvl 5: 2 TIE Fighter, 2 TIE Bomber, 2 TIE Interceptor, 2 Lancer, 2 Carrack, 1 Dreadnaught

Shipyard
  They serve as non-armed assembling platform for bolstering ships production.
  They are not upgradable but additional (e.g. you can build on Kuat the 3 types of shipyards).
  They only need a starbase lvl 1 for being built and do NOT need the previous shipyard.
  In GC they unlock certain ship class and give a build time cost reduction bonus(-25%) to certain ships (see Table), it serve to make planets more specialized.
  Complement;  lvl 1: 2 TIE Fighter, 1 Carrack
                            lvl 2: 1 TIE Fighter, 1 TIE Interceptor, 1 Dreadnaught
                            lvl 3: 2 TIE Interceptor, 1 Acclamator

Golans
  They are the thugs of the place and remain as they are, i fully agree on that.
   

Table Small Encounters (SE) W.I.P. Submod      Imperial Remnant                                                             Shipyard   Starbase    Shipyard   Build     Build      Units Type Name                   Class                  Length   (ICW SE)    (New)         (New)       Cost       Time    Pop                                     Starfighter/Starbomber                        1              1                                                 16-         1 Lancer-class                     Escort Frigate            250m          1              1                1b25       1100        20          1 Ton-Falk-class                  Escort Carrier            500m          1              1               1b25        1500        32          2 Carrack-class                    Light Cruiser             350m          1              2               1b25        1400        28          1 Strike-class                        Medium Cruiser        450m          1              2               1b25        1700        32          2 Dreadnaught-class           Heavy Cruiser          600m           1              2               1b25        2100        40         3 Katana-class                      Heavy Cruiser          600m           1              2               1b25        2900        44         2 Vindicator-class                 Heavy Cruiser           600m          1              2      +      1               2600        36          2 Immobilizer 418-class       Support Cruiser       600m           2              2      +      1                9000       80          3 Modulator-class (MTC)      Escort Carrier          1150m         2              3              2b25          2800       52         3 Acclamator II-class             Assault Cruiser        752m           2              3              2b25         3300        48         3 Venator-class                      Star Destroyer         1137m         2               3      +      2               4400       60          5 Victory I-class                      Star Destroyer         900m           2               3              2b25         4200       56          4 Victory II-class                     Star Destroyer         900m           2               3      +      2                5000       64          4 Crimson Victory II-class     Star Destroyer         900m           2               3      +      2                5600       72          4     Interdictor-class                   Star Destroyer        1600m         3               4              3b25          14000     172       6 Imperial I-class                    Star Destroyer         1600m         3               4              3b25          7400       104       6 Imperial II-class                   Star Destroyer         1600m         3               4      +      3                8800       120        6 Tector-class                          Star Destroyer        1600m          3               4      +      3               13600      144       6 Praetor II-class                     Battlecruiser             4800m          3               5      +       3              20000      236      12 Executor-class                     Star Dreadnought   19,000m       3               5      +       3              60000      348       22 Shipyard (ICW SE):  The current Shipyard lvl requirement that i use for my SE submod Starbase (New):  The Starbase lvl requirement for ships with the starbase system Shipyard (New):  The Shipyard lvl requirement for ships with the starbase system,                                (2b25 mean that a shipyard lvl 2 give -25% time cost for building a ship of this type) Build Cost:  The Build Cost value that i use for my SE submod Build Time:  The Build Time Cost value that i use for my SE submod, (since i use greater value than ICW, build time cost reduction become more usefull) Pop:  The Population Cost value that i use for my SE submod * Value are not definitive

   
Of course the slot usage concern me, but i guess that space slot can be added since it is done in ICW.  I just wonder how, can i have some help for that?
My guess is that i need to mod the map files (.ted) for adding space slot point to a specific coordinate in a map (and of course the Planets.xml).
   
It could be cool to have Golan Space Colonies and XQ station in Ascendency, oh that mod will be illustrious!

Thank you for the feedbacks it gave me a lot to think about.

Quote

Question: How can I add laser cannons (Corellian Corvette/Lancer Frigate) weapons on to the space stations,
too provide some point-defense protection again the odd fight group?

There is no easy way since all the space models(.alo) of shipyard do not have "bones" for adding hard points on them (with the hardpoints.xml).
So first you have to add bones to a .alo model with 3ds max, sorry i cant really explain how i dont have lot of experience in this field (i just did it once, one year ago with 3ds max demo).  After you need to create hardpoints for the bones that you added (in the hardpoints.xml files), then put the created harpoints in the .xml file of the shipyard.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: kucsidave on October 21, 2015, 08:09:12 AM

now delete the post with the dropbox, or edit it to point to your submod in here: http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?board=53.0
because community mods go there.
please also read this:
http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=2373.0
and post your submod after that.
Sorry, but the way you did it is just plain wrong...

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 21, 2015, 01:59:25 PM

Sorry im new here and i have never posted before, so i dont masterize the art of posting yet.  The dropbox link that i put is not a submod, but only the table that didnt show right in my previous post.   I was aware of the link that you show me and i plan to of course release my submod there.   I was referring to the submod that i work on because i realized that the space station idea wont work well in vanilla ICW.  How do you delete previous post?

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: kucsidave on October 21, 2015, 03:32:01 PM

I think you can, I just forgot that only as long as nobody replies to it or only for just a certain time. I'm not sure.
I know you are new, that's why I gave you all these information, to help you out.
I have a submod of my own you know...
If you need help with something just PM me, and I will try my best to help you out.

Title: Re: An idea about space stations
Post by: Eugenes on October 24, 2015, 03:53:29 PM

Thank you Kucsidave, i saw your submod for the Duskan League, it look interesting since i think the DL needed some polishing. I wanted to beef up a little the DL in my own submod, so when i'll be there i'll check more in detail your work.