Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: CaptainPogo on July 24, 2014, 09:21:33 AM
-
Hi, back in here...Yeah, things were rough for me this Summer...Had a nice job but a few coworkers I dealt with were...Pretty bad at actually showing up at work.
But enough of that, back to this topic!
Going by the films alone (and probably the EU side of things regarding said duels), which one really got your attention and is overall your all-time favorite?
After some thought...I ended up realizing that Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader's duel on Bespin in Empire Strikes Back is probably my favorite due to...Everything about it.
While not as crazy agile as the prequel duels, it was far more entertaining than the limited movements with caution blows and defenses as Ben Kenobi vs Vader in A New Hope have shown. Hell, anyone who thought Vader was an immovable rock would be pretty surprised upon watching this duel.
And the whole thing was just great, the whole movie sets up the fact that Luke has become a stronger warrior compared to his portrayal during ANH, with newer abilities during his time with Yoda. While he was still green, we honestly thought he could at least give Vader a good fight.
Then we learn later, after losing his hand and his mental state completely shot after the eventual duel, that Luke was nowhere in Vader's league.
To start, the two fought in the chamber, with Luke seemly having the upper hand after avoiding an instant defeat thanks to Vader underestimating him. Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Then Vader starts to display his advance force skills to overwhelm Luke, Luke managed to avoid falling to his death but barely. Vader wasn't trying to kill him. Then Vader finally takes off the kid gloves and outright destroys Luke, with Luke barely having a lucky blow that mostly pisses Vader off than hurt him. And then we get the chopped off hand and the infamous father scene, which completes Luke's utter defeat.
And all that, and Vader still wasn't trying to kill him.
That speaks a Hell lot about Vader and the audience probably realize that if Vader didn't give a shit about Luke...Then the Original Trilogy would arguably end right there. Made even more impressive as years later, it was confirmed that Ben Kenobi wasn't kidding that Vader was more machine than man and that his force potential was kind of hampered. While at the same time, Luke was actually a powerhouse of a force user (well, against non-force users) before his training with Yoda.
-
Also my favorite too. The part where Vader effortlessly rotates Luke's lightsaber out of the way and takes off his hand in one motion was very elegant and concise. It spoke volumes about his abilities as a swordsman and showed that if he'd wanted to he could have done that earlier with ease.
-
I actually don't like the prequel fights so much, to me they're just too ridiculous. Especially if Yoda is involved, I mean how could anyone take that seriously?
That said, I loved the duel with Darth Maul in Episode I. The whole thing is beautifully choreographed, and the the music just makes it perfect. It was probably the best scene in any of the prequels, I'd rank it the number two duel in the whole saga.
-
Great opening post and I couldn't agree more. The Bespin duel is in my opinion one of the finest moments in Star Wars.
I remember watching TESB for the first time when I was 8 years old and vividly remember the overbearing sense of desperation the duel and its aftermath manages to convey. Things just keep getting worse for poor Luke. Falling of a window, getting his hand chopped off and finally falling down to the very bottom of Cloud City, not to mention the father reveal.
It also does a great job of portraying actual combat fatigue in the post-duel scenes with Luke being both physically and mentally spent, his eyes still wide in fear. In my opinion, those post-duel Falcon scenes validated Vader as the ultimate badass villain in the galaxy, being terrifying enough to turn the protagonist into a shivering wreck.
-
I'd also give an honorable mention to Dooku vs Obi wan and Anakin in II and III. Very well choreographed, much emotion good acting and not over the top like many of the duels. You feel like you're actually watching a legitimate sword fight in that precise movement and strikes take the place of all the ridiculous leaping and flipping. Also you see Dooku after each duel show some fatigue via the sigh and slight slump as he loosens the force control helping him move.
-
My fav is the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel in ROTS. I feel it combines the crazy action of the prequels with the drama the original trilogy delivered so well. You've got master vs. apprentice, friend vs. friend, with the fate of the galaxy possibly hanging in the balance, on a lava planet where even the slightest slippage could painfully end the fight. Oh, and it benefits from the advances in technology over thirty years. Duels like that are what I'm hoping Disney will feature in the new set.
From the originals, I definitely agree that Luke/Vader is the best, with a close second going to the second match in Return of the Jedi.
-
My favorite duel would have to be the duel vs. Darth Maul. As was said before, it was beautifully choreographed, and the best background music. It amazed me when I watched it that Darth Maul was able to take on both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan at the same time using only his lightsaber skills and not resorting to something like force lightning or throwing objects like the other sith. So in terms of pure lightsaber dueling, the battle against Darth Maul wins out in my opinion.
-
My fav is the Obi-Wan/Anakin duel in ROTS. I feel it combines the crazy action of the prequels with the drama the original trilogy delivered so well. You've got master vs. apprentice, friend vs. friend, with the fate of the galaxy possibly hanging in the balance, on a lava planet where even the slightest slippage could painfully end the fight.
Agreed, I really like that duel. Especially the ending with Anakin's overconfidence and Obi Wan's impassioned speech. The ones that I felt really let down by were the Sidious vs Jedis and Sidious vs Yoda - firstly why did all those other Jedi Masters die so easily, and secondly I wanted to see a proper Yoda/Sidious match not just them throwing senate podiums at each other!
-
Agreed, I really like that duel. Especially the ending with Anakin's overconfidence and Obi Wan's impassioned speech. The ones that I felt really let down by were the Sidious vs Jedis and Sidious vs Yoda - firstly why did all those other Jedi Masters die so easily, and secondly I wanted to see a proper Yoda/Sidious match not just them throwing senate podiums at each other!
I actually liked their representation in the old trilogy better when yoda lifted the X Wing out of the swamp and then there was the force lightning from the Emperor's hands that had never been seen before and to me it showed their power was above even lightsabers but then they'd had to do all the acrobatics and jumping and throwing things in the prequels also as to why those Jedi died so easily it's because the Emperor is awesome and jedi suck
-
My personal favorite is Anankin vs Obi in ROTS. The setting is perfect with the best music and we finally get to see how Vader became the maimed man in the suit.
-
I've never understood the problem people had with Yoda/Sidious fighting like that; I don't buy into the idea that they should just be able to do all of that stuff without a lightsaber. Using a lightsaber essentially just means they have focus on getting the pointy end inside someone once. If it was all just left to force stuff, they'd essentially have to completely overpower the other person in the most difficult way possible. The only time anyone seems to have bothered doing that was when Jacen turned into that weird glowing force beacony thing to kill Onimi.
-
Well, Yoda being so small and needing those acrobatics made it a little ridiculous...but yeah, Force duels get boring. Witness the beginning of Yoda/Dooku, when they basically try that and then move to sabers because the whole thing was pointless. Though I wonder why Yoda didn't use his small stature to his advantage and go for the legs. (Well, Palps did have to survive, but still...)
-
I did love the facial expressions the Emperor made during his duels tho he seemed to be enjoying himself so much
-
True, actually seeing the Emperor himself in lightsaber action was pretty awesome; Ian McDiarmid pretty much stole the show in ROTS. There were times when it seemed like he was the only one even trying...
-
i have to say thats RoTS's Obi-Wan vs. Anakin at mustafar, it was just so cool :D
-
I've never understood the problem people had with Yoda/Sidious fighting like that; I don't buy into the idea that they should just be able to do all of that stuff without a lightsaber. Using a lightsaber essentially just means they have focus on getting the pointy end inside someone once. If it was all just left to force stuff, they'd essentially have to completely overpower the other person in the most difficult way possible. The only time anyone seems to have bothered doing that was when Jacen turned into that weird glowing force beacony thing to kill Onimi.
I mostly agree, and yet... I am still disappointed that all we got from watching arguably the two most powerful Force users of their time fight was essentially stuff we'd already seen, just a bit bigger, faster and flashier. I'd have loved to be given something like Darth Zannah's Sith sorcery, or the battle Zahn has Cardas mention between Yoda and an unnamed dark Jedi on Dagobah which he describes as "For nearly a day and a half the swamp blazed with fire and lightning and things I still don't understand. (45 years and a fair bit of Force education later)" It makes sense to me for Jedi to mostly use the Force to augment themselves and their perceptions (defense rather than attack), which Yoda would be expected to be incredible at, but Sith tend to attack through the Force a lot more readily - I'd just have loved to see something other than more lightsabers, lightning and thrown objects.
As for favorite lightsaber fight... my only gripe with picking Bespin is that Vader was holding back for most of the fight, and for the entirety of it he was not actually trying to kill Luke. For the entire fight, it was essentially a matter of "when Vader decides to actually end it, it will end quickly". Otherwise, I have to go with Anakin v Obi-wan - it was emotionally intense, they were perfectly matched opponents both actually trying to kill each other, and given their power levels at the time combined with Anakin's lack of any real dark side education at this point, it doesn't fall prey to my above criticism.
-
True, actually seeing the Emperor himself in lightsaber action was pretty awesome; Ian McDiarmid pretty much stole the show in ROTS. There were times when it seemed like he was the only one even trying...
Indeed and watching kill 3 of the orders so called best was absolutely enjoyable and he clearly could have killed Mace, even held him at saber point for a bit then let him come back because he needed to force a defection from anakin. I have always HATED jedi, with the exception of obiwan, kota and katarn, those i rrespec.
-
I mostly agree, and yet... I am still disappointed that all we got from watching arguably the two most powerful Force users of their time fight was essentially stuff we'd already seen, just a bit bigger, faster and flashier. I'd have loved to be given something like Darth Zannah's Sith sorcery, or the battle Zahn has Cardas mention between Yoda and an unnamed dark Jedi on Dagobah which he describes as "For nearly a day and a half the swamp blazed with fire and lightning and things I still don't understand. (45 years and a fair bit of Force education later)" It makes sense to me for Jedi to mostly use the Force to augment themselves and their perceptions (defense rather than attack), which Yoda would be expected to be incredible at, but Sith tend to attack through the Force a lot more readily - I'd just have loved to see something other than more lightsabers, lightning and thrown objects.
You would probably enjoy the Darth Andeddu vs. Darth Wyyrlock duel from Legacy comics. That fight's got some serious fireworks.
-
in the books i would have to say darth bane and zannah killing the 5 jedi in the first book, or vader and the dark woman .In the movies dooku vs Yoda in the clone wars or anakin and kenobi in rots on mustifar
-
It is not in the movies, not a duel and does not have a single lightsaber, but the Canted Circle assassination attempt in Darth Plagueis is one of the best fight scenes in the entire EU.
It is well written, takes the reader by surprise and involves two of the most powerful Sith Lords ever with a cameo by Sate Pestage and his heavy repeating blaster.
"Let them inhale the aroma of the dark side."
-
I liked the final battle in Mt Tantiss against C'baoth. Was very well written, emotional and showed us uses of the force that had not been glimpsed before.
-
In the movies I would have to say it is a tie between the final duel in Episode 6 and the Mustafar duel. The fight in Episode 6 had a lot of feeling in it, and was tense as the fate of the galaxy rested on the outcome. It wasn't anyone playing games or being fancy; just two men in a fight for their lives. It was raw and powerful. Mustafar was also full of feeling, only this time the battle was between two people who knew each other so well they could already predict each other's moves and counter. You get the feeling that even then Obi Wan was not willing to kill Anakin until that point where they are both on hovering platforms above the lava (when he says "then you are lost!"). I also like the fact that the trick Anakin tried to pull on Obi Wan at the very end is the same one that Obi Wan himself used to end Darth Maul. Then he leaves Anakin's fate to the Force, probably even then knowing in the back of his mind that by doing so he has sealed his own death sentence.
When it comes to EU battles, the Mt. Tantiss showdown is a personal favorite. The battles in Labyrinth of Evil and The Rise of Darth Vader are also very good. Probably some of the best are the cinematic TOR trailers though. I just could keep watching those over and over again.
-
Luke vs. Vader while the Emperor watches in RotJ.
That has the best piece of music ever written by John Williams in my opinion - probably the second best in the whole franchise.
I guess I like how the scene is laid out. Pan past the stairs onto the catwalk. It's a real short fight compared to most other duels. Probably thirty seconds before Luke starts wailing on the guy, and then it's all over.
As far as EU goes, Sion vs. Surik. Sion is such a cool character, and I love how every fight with him ties back to their respective relationships with Kreia.
-
While i didn't care for the series as a whole, I LOVED watching Sidious crush those fan beloved fools Oppress and Maul in CWs. The dual is so deliciously one sided it's evident that with just the motion of pinning them to the windows at the very start Sidious could have killed them without even trying. I just love how he sadistically toys with them until he decides to just crush them utterly leaving Oppress dead and Maul a begging pathetic wreck at his feet.
-
While i didn't care for the series as a whole, I LOVED watching Sidious crush those fan beloved fools Oppress and Maul in CWs. The dual is so deliciously one sided it's evident that with just the motion of pinning them to the windows at the very start Sidious could have killed them without even trying. I just love how he sadistically toys with them until he decides to just crush them utterly leaving Oppress dead and Maul a begging pathetic wreck at his feet.
Speaking of humiliating your opponent, Obi-Wan vs. Krayt was very similar. Kenobi let Krayt have his moments only to then switch up a gear and BAM! Down goes Krayt.
Since I've recently been re-reading the Legacy comics, gotta also give a shout to Emperor Roan Fel for bringing a gun to a sword fight in Legacy #13.
-
As far as EU goes, Sion vs. Surik. Sion is such a cool character, and I love how every fight with him ties back to their respective relationships with Kreia.
Oh God, yes. Also the fight with Kreia after. The best fights in videogames are those you have no trouble transplanting over to a movie, and the Old Republic era has so many of those: Revan/Bastila and Revan/Malak in KoTOR1, Surik/Sion and Surik/Kreia in 2, and TOR...oh, don't even get me started.
-
Oh God, yes. Also the fight with Kreia after. The best fights in videogames are those you have no trouble transplanting over to a movie, and the Old Republic era has so many of those: Revan/Bastila and Revan/Malak in KoTOR1, Surik/Sion and Surik/Kreia in 2, and TOR...oh, don't even get me started.
Yes. The Old Republic era battles are all very good. I do love Revan's battles, as he is a personal favorite (one of the few Force-users to see that there is more to the Force than the Jedi view and having the strength of will to tap into the Dark Sode without letting it consume him). Sion has also always been a personal favorite maybe because of how relatable he is: all of us at one point or another have internalized emotions, allowing us to keep going without "disintegrating" to the pressures of life for a short time only to find ourselves unable to let it go afterwards.
Another great fight is the one from the Crosscurrent novel between the old Jedi and his apprentice. Perhaps one of the best lines from the EU is in that fight. The Jedi has embraced the Dark Side in order to gain the mastery of the Sith Lord, realizing that by doing so he has violated everything he has ever lived for, but that the Sith MUST be defeated at any cost. He says: "I hate myself for what I have become. But I hate you more!" And proceeds to kill the Sith and destroy the ship so that neither of their stains will remain in the galaxy.
-
Some of KOTOR's fights weren't all that great.
On the Star Forge for example, I just cast Force Kill until everything died, got stuck in adhesive grenades, and healed every other turn. There wasn't much impact in fighting through dozens of dark side adepts.
On the flip side, Yuthura/Uthar/Revan was a great fight gamewise but wouldn't translate well into a movie.
-
Maybe it might, but a moviemaker would have to leave time for Yuthura's redemption to be poignant, so probably the actual fighting would be quick. (Which reflects the in-game reality: cast Insanity, torpedo through Ulthar (especially with Scoundrel levels), rinse and repeat with Yuthura.)
-
The battle against Lord Nyax. That was on an epic scale, was decently written and had my favorite line from Luke, " I stand in your way. What you see...you will not accomplish. " to Nyax when he sees what Nyax wants to do to the galaxy.
-
Well, if we're counting everything... well, damn. Too much to choose from, and a lot of favorites already mentioned (Siddious vs Maul/Oppress, Nyax, Tantiss, Labyrinth of Evil all loves of mine).
But I have to mention Ganner Rhysode's last stand - I loved the way it was written as being a grand symphony playing out through the Force, the redemption and fulfillment of Ganner's character, and the epic setting: Ganner holding a doorway alone against thousands and beating them all, animating statues and shields of rubble swirling around him, and how the fight turns him into a mythological figure for the Vong ("None shall pass"). Very high on the list of my favorite fights.
-
Well, if we're counting everything... well, damn. Too much to choose from, and a lot of favorites already mentioned (Siddious vs Maul/Oppress, Nyax, Tantiss, Labyrinth of Evil all loves of mine).
But I have to mention Ganner Rhysode's last stand - I loved the way it was written as being a grand symphony playing out through the Force, the redemption and fulfillment of Ganner's character, and the epic setting: Ganner holding a doorway alone against thousands and beating them all, animating statues and shields of rubble swirling around him, and how the fight turns him into a mythological figure for the Vong ("None shall pass"). Very high on the list of my favorite fights.
Best line in all EU, " Bring on your thousands. One at a time or all at once....none shall pass,"
-
Best line in all EU, " Bring on your thousands. One at a time or all at once....none shall pass,"
Indeed. Right there, at that time, Ganner Rhysode embodied everything a Jedi was supposed to be and stand for. Couldn't ask for a more epic and moving way to go if you ask me.
-
Always just made me think of the black knight in monty python...
-
Whoa, that'll teach me to lose focus here while packing my bags to Vietnam.
I'll admit, the Novel version of Sidious's fight against Mace and crew is...Many times better since it made both sides were indeed strong (like those Jedi were not cannon fodder, just....Horribly outclassed which they never expected) and the made the duel itself into something completely off the rails of any duel we have seen.
Hell, Anakin was partially a witness and for a guy who can pull off reactions in a starfighter that normal pilots deemed impossible to do and as a kid participated in races that involves dodging obstacles in a rocket-powered car, he sure as Hell couldn't exactly see Sidious and Mace go at it, saying they were literally fading in and out of existence. Props to Mace as it gives details on how his Vaapad style actually allow him to duel evenly with Sidious.
-
Some things just work better in a novel. That's one of them--especially since Kit Fisto is anything but cannon fodder, but in the film he's just a trivia answer: "Who was the only one of the Jedi arresting Palpatine, other than Windu, not to get immediately killed?"
-
So, rewatched Luke vs Vader at the Death Star II and I felt like fans of prequels were very unfair to downplay both combatants as a duelist, mainly due to lack of fast paced martial skill.
Because this duel was pretty damn intense.
And I love the slight reversal of roles compared to the Bespin duel, with Luke and Vader switching roles. It may not be as obvious but when you think about it, Luke wasn't trying to harm Vader and fought in defensive manner...And blocked every strike from a Vader who knew he has to succeed to kill his own son if it meant living another day so it meant none of that holding back he displayed in Bespin. The "unwise to lower your defenses" is a clear sign he's trying to kill Luke to avoid being replaced and yet Luke with little effort blocks his strikes. Many sources do say the two men were practically equals as duelists and since we're talking about a infamous Jedi killer and former war hero against a guy who has a few years of training on the side while fighting a war the moment he joined up...That's a lot to say about Luke.
And then once Luke showed he too can remove the kid gloves...Vader was overwhelmed by such a fury. It may look a tad ridiculous but if you were in Vader's shoes...You would be scared of the fact this person who wasn't even trying to fight you...Now wants you dead for personal reasons and threw all sense of reason and tact just to murder you.
-
I love the qoute from the RotJ book, " Luke attcked Vader with a fury he'd never known....nor had Vader!"
Luke did a lot of back and forth through his film and EU career, going from impotent ponderer to unrivaled badass when he pulled out the stops( his almost singlehandedly killing or incapacitating hundreds of elite yuuzhan vong then killing Shimrra, his operating of ALL the crew stations with perfection on the Falcon during the last part of tge battle of Dathomir, his last dual with Vader and his severing of reborn palps hand in later Dark Empire) All that was reflected in Luke's dual above Endor with Vader, his true opponent was never really Vader, but his desire NOT to become LIKE Vader.
-
Couldn't have said it better myself.
-
My personal favorite would be the first fight between Kyle Katarn and Desann on Artus Prime in Jedi Outcast. Having god mode on and with a lightsaber equipped (through cheat codes) makes it more thrilling, adding to the fact that with God mode still on in Kyle's case, Desann can attack Kyle with his lightsaber, but only if the duel is dragged throughout the map, as in the landing platform, Desann only uses Force Push, Pull and Grip.