Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Newrepublic-woodie on August 11, 2012, 07:27:50 PM
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Does anyone else see it as a bit of a shame, how well over 80% of the grand strategists, within the Empire, were killed by their own people?
Imagine the out come of the war, had those 12 Admirals, all been unified.... or had they all led campaigns such as the Thrawn campaign? :)
What are your views? :)
peace xxxx
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Well not 80% of the Grand Admirals perished at their own forces hands(only 6 did so 50% died that way) and not all of them were really the best minds in the Empire(I personally think Admirals/Grand Moffs since they both held those two ranks Zsinj and Ardus Kaine were certainly better tacticians and strategists than the first 7 on this list and equal to or possibly better than the next 3 and should have been Grand Admirals), some were political appointees. I shall list them from worst tactician to best with reasons why not all of them would have been good at working together or indeed even on their own.
Ishin Il Raz had no military background, he was a propagandist(like Josef Goebels in the Third Reich) he committed suicide by jumping his ISD into a supernova.(I purposely leave his title out since he has no right to it)
Grand Admiral Grant was appointed due to his nobility as a gesture to the Topani nobles(he was only an average strategist) he fled the Empire for the Alignment and later the New Republic since he made no connections and was widely despised.
Grand Admiral Declaan was appointed due to his force sensitivity and connections to the Prophets of the Dark side and not was not a gifted strategist. He died on the Death Star when the rebels blew it up.
Grand Admiral Batch was appointed due to his technological expertise and understanding of military hardware, not tactics. He WAS killed by his own command staff(though this was kind of deserved since he lost the SSD Terror, all the TIE Phantoms and his research base to TWO just TWO standard Rebel spies/pilots)
Grand Admiral Makati was an average strategist who was appointed for his unswerving loyalty to the New Order. He was killed by Rebels(or pirates it's not really clear) attacking the Commerce Sector.
Grand Admiral Tigellinus was a decent tactician but a better Grand Moff and political strategist. He was mainly placed into the ranks for political savvy and appeal(as he was quite popular.) He was killed after being tricked by Moff Disra into insulting the council of Grand Moffs and it's leader, so he was executed as a result.
Grand Admiral Syn was a capable tactician and a religious fanatic that made him very easy to manipulate by the powers that be, he was loyal and possibly suicidal if need be. He fought Ackbar though outnumbered and Ackbar privately admitted what truly beat Syn was Bothan disinformation. He died in a hail of proton torps from two mon cal cruisers over kashyyyk.
Grand Admiral Takel was an allegedly brilliant tactician but a slave to his vices and not beloved or respected by those under his command. Grunger outsmarted him and took Takels forces for his own. Takel sought vengeance but had no forces to do it with so he sided with the council of Grand Moffs and in a spice induced haze kept questioning the lack of tactical intelligence of the Moffs and was ordered executed.
Grand Admiral Pitta I think I'd rank slightly lower than Grunger in that while he fought Grunger to a draw it wasn't due to being better than Grunger. In attack to win you must destroy your enemy utterly or get him to leave(you must be the aggressor and casualty rates tend to reflect this, an attakcer normally needs a 3 to 1 advantage when attacking an entrenched enemy) Pitta merely had to sit with his back to the gravity well(this secured his flank and read so Grunger could ONLY attack from the front and he knew this so any decent military mind could make an attacker of higher skilland numbers pay a terrible price. War almost always favors defense in such situations. Pitta was smart enough to know that Corellia was invaluable. He had shipyards to construct a massive fleet, he had the trade route for an economy, Corellia was an Imperial haven with the Diktat and thus Pitta would only grow stronger over time when displaced or deserting Imperial forces took refuge with him and then there was the already powerful Corellian sector fleet to augment his forces. He took the Corellian shipyards and was content with that. Built his forces and turned the system into a fortress he could rule in for decades...then Grunger came and the aforementioned battle ended both their promising careers far too early(though I would have LOVED to see this battle...especially the look on Pitta's face when Grunger ordered the Aggressor to ram the sphere rather than run!)
Grand Admiral Grunger was supposed to be one of the best strategists and tacticians of the twelve. He had a Pantheon of victories before being appointed a GA, after Endor he moved with decisive speed, beating Takel and taking his forces. He amassed an enormous armada of ships and an SSD to invade the core and proclaim himself Emperor but was still wise enough to have a fallback plan by offering to serve Trioculous if he proved worthy in case Grunger needed the support of the Grand Moffs. He then tried to seize Corellia where he was stopped by fellow GA Pitta, a New Order and COMPNOR rabid zealot-and gifted defensive tactical genius. Where Grunger was a brilliant Blitz and attack strategist, Pitta was a brilliant defensive strategist and had the Corellian Sector Fleet, his own personal Fleet and a commandeered Torpedo sphere. The resulting battle wiped out both forces save the command ships. Grunger could not now take Imp Center, and his dreams of Galactic conquest were in ruins, but rather than allow Pitta to rule Corellia and revel in his victory Grunger had his SSD Kamikaze the Torpedo Sphere killing both he and Pitta-making it a draw.(I kind of always liked Grunger as he struck me as a Moriarty type villain. Brilliant, without conscience and willing to kill himself to take his enemy with him rather than lose and run.
Grand Admiral Teshik, I would truly have liked to meet this GA. He struck me as very Pellaeon like and I think next to GA Zaarin was the most brilliant of the original Twelve and second only to Thrawn of all the GAs in my opinion. He had an incredible record of service. Was a brilliant tactician and strategist who also respected those under his command. He was ordered to his near death on a petty whim to serve as an example. he survived but needed mechanical replacements for 80% of his body and was treated as an abomination and failure as a result by his fellow GAs and his Emperor. He became callous from this and allowed minor war crimes under his watch. he was redeemed when saved by a construction worker on the Death Star II. he then assumed command of the fleet and fought a holding action for hours in spite of Imperial incompetence and confusion due to the Emperor's death. He held out against the ENTIRE Rebel fleet for FOUR hours AFTER the rest of the Imperial Fleet had fled. The self righteous rebels had to have a sacrifice so they killed Teshik, the least evil(other than Thrawn) of the first 13 GAs.
Now to my point. 4 of the GAs would not have been a boon to the cause really as they had little or no military experience. 3 were average commanders who were capable but not exceptional. 3 of the brilliant ones HATED each other vehemently so would not have been able to work together. Teshik was reviled and few would have followed him due to prejudice and Thrawn had his Empire of the Hand to secure for years and could not return as a result, so a Grand Admiral coalition(without the Emperor to ENFORCE it) might not have been too effective.
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Well not 80% of the Grand Admirals perished at their own forces hands(only 6 did so 50% died that way) and not all of them were really the best minds in the Empire(I personally think Admirals/Grand Moffs since they both held those two ranks Zsinj and Ardus Kaine were certainly better tacticians and strategists than the first 7 on this list and equal to or possibly better than the next 3 and should have been Grand Admirals), some were political appointees. I shall list them from worst tactician to best with reasons why not all of them would have been good at working together or indeed even on their own.
Ishin Il Raz had no military background, he was a propagandist(like Josef Goebels in the Third Reich) he committed suicide by jumping his ISD into a supernova.(I purposely leave his title out since he has no right to it)
Grand Admiral Grant was appointed due to his nobility as a gesture to the Topani nobles(he was only an average strategist) he fled the Empire for the Alignment and later the New Republic since he made no connections and was widely despised.
Grand Admiral Declaan was appointed due to his force sensitivity and connections to the Prophets of the Dark side and not was not a gifted strategist. He died on the Death Star when the rebels blew it up.
Grand Admiral Batch was appointed due to his technological expertise and understanding of military hardware, not tactics. He WAS killed by his own command staff(though this was kind of deserved since he lost the SSD Terror, all the TIE Phantoms and his research base to TWO just TWO standard Rebel spies/pilots)
Grand Admiral Makati was an average strategist who was appointed for his unswerving loyalty to the New Order. He was killed by Rebels(or pirates it's not really clear) attacking the Commerce Sector.
Grand Admiral Tigellinus was a decent tactician but a better Grand Moff and political strategist. He was mainly placed into the ranks for political savvy and appeal(as he was quite popular.) He was killed after being tricked by Moff Disra into insulting the council of Grand Moffs and it's leader, so he was executed as a result.
Grand Admiral Syn was a capable tactician and a religious fanatic that made him very easy to manipulate by the powers that be, he was loyal and possibly suicidal if need be. He fought Ackbar though outnumbered and Ackbar privately admitted what truly beat Syn was Bothan disinformation. He died in a hail of proton torps from two mon cal cruisers over kashyyyk.
Grand Admiral Takel was an allegedly brilliant tactician but a slave to his vices and not beloved or respected by those under his command. Grunger outsmarted him and took Takels forces for his own. Takel sought vengeance but had no forces to do it with so he sided with the council of Grand Moffs and in a spice induced haze kept questioning the lack of tactical intelligence of the Moffs and was ordered executed.
Grand Admiral Pitta I think I'd rank slightly lower than Grunger in that while he fought Grunger to a draw it wasn't due to being better than Grunger. In attack to win you must destroy your enemy utterly or get him to leave(you must be the aggressor and casualty rates tend to reflect this, an attakcer normally needs a 3 to 1 advantage when attacking an entrenched enemy) Pitta merely had to sit with his back to the gravity well(this secured his flank and read so Grunger could ONLY attack from the front and he knew this so any decent military mind could make an attacker of higher skilland numbers pay a terrible price. War almost always favors defense in such situations. Pitta was smart enough to know that Corellia was invaluable. He had shipyards to construct a massive fleet, he had the trade route for an economy, Corellia was an Imperial haven with the Diktat and thus Pitta would only grow stronger over time when displaced or deserting Imperial forces took refuge with him and then there was the already powerful Corellian sector fleet to augment his forces. He took the Corellian shipyards and was content with that. Built his forces and turned the system into a fortress he could rule in for decades...then Grunger came and the aforementioned battle ended both their promising careers far too early(though I would have LOVED to see this battle...especially the look on Pitta's face when Grunger ordered the Aggressor to ram the sphere rather than run!)
Grand Admiral Grunger was supposed to be one of the best strategists and tacticians of the twelve. He had a Pantheon of victories before being appointed a GA, after Endor he moved with decisive speed, beating Takel and taking his forces. He amassed an enormous armada of ships and an SSD to invade the core and proclaim himself Emperor but was still wise enough to have a fallback plan by offering to serve Trioculous if he proved worthy in case Grunger needed the support of the Grand Moffs. He then tried to seize Corellia where he was stopped by fellow GA Pitta, a New Order and COMPNOR rabid zealot-and gifted defensive tactical genius. Where Grunger was a brilliant Blitz and attack strategist, Pitta was a brilliant defensive strategist and had the Corellian Sector Fleet, his own personal Fleet and a commandeered Torpedo sphere. The resulting battle wiped out both forces save the command ships. Grunger could not now take Imp Center, and his dreams of Galactic conquest were in ruins, but rather than allow Pitta to rule Corellia and revel in his victory Grunger had his SSD Kamikaze the Torpedo Sphere killing both he and Pitta-making it a draw.(I kind of always liked Grunger as he struck me as a Moriarty type villain. Brilliant, without conscience and willing to kill himself to take his enemy with him rather than lose and run.
Grand Admiral Teshik, I would truly have liked to meet this GA. He struck me as very Pellaeon like and I think next to GA Zaarin was the most brilliant of the original Twelve and second only to Thrawn of all the GAs in my opinion. He had an incredible record of service. Was a brilliant tactician and strategist who also respected those under his command. He was ordered to his near death on a petty whim to serve as an example. he survived but needed mechanical replacements for 80% of his body and was treated as an abomination and failure as a result by his fellow GAs and his Emperor. He became callous from this and allowed minor war crimes under his watch. he was redeemed when saved by a construction worker on the Death Star II. he then assumed command of the fleet and fought a holding action for hours in spite of Imperial incompetence and confusion due to the Emperor's death. He held out against the ENTIRE Rebel fleet for FOUR hours AFTER the rest of the Imperial Fleet had fled. The self righteous rebels had to have a sacrifice so they killed Teshik, the least evil(other than Thrawn) of the first 13 GAs.
Now to my point. 4 of the GAs would not have been a boon to the cause really as they had little or no military experience. 3 were average commanders who were capable but not exceptional. 3 of the brilliant ones HATED each other vehemently so would not have been able to work together. Teshik was reviled and few would have followed him due to prejudice and Thrawn had his Empire of the Hand to secure for years and could not return as a result, so a Grand Admiral coalition(without the Emperor to ENFORCE it) might not have been too effective.
Actually, you're right.. it probably would have gone pear-shaped, had they all been under a coalition.
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Indeed, most of them would have been to busy trying to kill one another to be an effective front. the only thing that kept the Grand Admirals, Grand Moffs and the rest of the Empire from the bloodbath of internecine warfare was the fear of the Emperor(or devotion depending) without him...well we saw the results for ourselves to the sorrow of the Galaxy.
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Indeed, most of them would have been to busy trying to kill one another to be an effective front. the only thing that kept the Grand Admirals, Grand Moffs and the rest of the Empire from the bloodbath of internecine warfare was the fear of the Emperor(or devotion depending) without him...well we saw the results for ourselves to the sorrow of the Galaxy.
I think the way the story went after the Vongh was wrong. It just seemed to repeat. I wish the Remnant had held out against the NR for longer, and had had better leadership.
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and then once the vong invasion came... that should have been the end of the road.. for the poor galaxy lol
In my opinion.. the Sith/ Jedi thing goes on too long
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yes, the vong should have been the ending point. The Sith should have STAYED extinct with Palpatine and Vader. It DID repeat, that's all it ever does now. Oh let's kill a character here and there to spice it up, but it's all just a rehash without the magic.
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Well, but then we wouldn't have the Pallaeon class star destroyer (the only thing after the Vong invasion I like).
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Well, but then we wouldn't have the Pallaeon class star destroyer (the only thing after the Vong invasion I like).
It is, indeed, a lovely ship! I can only imagine the fire power :)
yes, the vong should have been the ending point. The Sith should have STAYED extinct with Palpatine and Vader. It DID repeat, that's all it ever does now. Oh let's kill a character here and there to spice it up, but it's all just a rehash without the magic.
Perhaps, it should have featured another galaxy, or the Chiss, or something? Or had the EU shown the galaxy at peace, after the Vong, and then shown a few factions (remaining warlords, or whoever), who tried to break that peace. However not another empire/ invasion. I also dislike how the NR/GA fall out with the Jedi... and how the Bothans and Hapes take on the GA etc.
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I would have preferred Pellaeon's legacy to have been an Imperial Remnant at peace rather than just one impressive Warship. I would have preferred that after the apocalyptic Vong War(which let's face it really was the final absolute test that couldn't be topped crisis wise) the vision of a Galaxy unified was something that didn't just 'magically' fall to pieces with something as far fetched as ANOTHER Corellian Insurection, Centerpoint AGAIN, Pellaeon getting shot by some stupid teen instead of dying in peace on Bastion, Daala somehow Duex Ex Machina-ing her way into Chief of KRIFFING State! Jacen doing some sort of BS quasi Ani turn to Dark side with that pitiful PRETENDER of a Sith Lumiya, and the absolutely far fetched lunacy of Vergere being a Sith Disciple of Darth Sidious who just decided she didn't like his way of doing things and peacefully left his service.
I would have preferred the Galactic History not repeat almost EXACTLY the same as it did in the OR, prequels, and Post Endor EU ALL OVER AGAIN!(I realize there is a limit to human creativity but Humans need to grow a pair an dsay, we've done all we can do here, let's leave the poor bastards in a Galaxy Far Away alone, they've suffered enough.)
Okay Rant over.
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I would have preferred Pellaeon's legacy to have been an Imperial Remnant at peace rather than just one impressive Warship. I would have preferred that after the apocalyptic Vong War(which let's face it really was the final absolute test that couldn't be topped crisis wise) the vision of a Galaxy unified was something that didn't just 'magically' fall to pieces with something as far fetched as ANOTHER Corellian Insurection, Centerpoint AGAIN, Pellaeon getting shot by some stupid teen instead of dying in peace on Bastion, Daala somehow Duex Ex Machina-ing her way into Chief of KRIFFING State! Jacen doing some sort of BS quasi Ani turn to Dark side with that pitiful PRETENDER of a Sith Lumiya, and the absolutely far fetched lunacy of Vergere being a Sith Disciple of Darth Sidious who just decided she didn't like his way of doing things and peacefully left his service.
I would have preferred the Galactic History not repeat almost EXACTLY the same as it did in the OR, prequels, and Post Endor EU ALL OVER AGAIN!(I realize there is a limit to human creativity but Humans need to grow a pair an dsay, we've done all we can do here, let's leave the poor bastards in a Galaxy Far Away alone, they've suffered enough.)
Okay Rant over.
Hahaha, I feel your pain. It should have all been left, well alone.
There should have been, for the most part, united peace, in a 99% unite galaxy. Maybe a few duels with pirates, or remaining criminals and warlords.
When I read about the second Imperium...I thought to myself "are they ever going to leave the poor folks alone" lol
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Yes it does kind of tick me off that they just continue to make these guy's lives hell. I always liked Wedge, the Rogues, Wraiths, Pellaeon and Garm and really after all they've been through just wanted to see a peaceful ending for them.
(incidentally I want your opinion on my What if Scenario, the Galactic Empire vs the Yuuzhan Vong and my Greatest Imperial Warlord in SW Discussion)
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Yes it does kind of tick me off that they just continue to make these guy's lives hell. I always liked Wedge, the Rogues, Wraiths, Pellaeon and Garm and really after all they've been through just wanted to see a peaceful ending for them.
(incidentally I want your opinion on my What if Scenario, the Galactic Empire vs the Yuuzhan Vong and my Greatest Imperial Warlord in SW Discussion)
Exactly, all are likable characters. I actually quite liked Cpt/admiral piett, as well. :)
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Yes it does kind of tick me off that they just continue to make these guy's lives hell. I always liked Wedge, the Rogues, Wraiths, Pellaeon and Garm and really after all they've been through just wanted to see a peaceful ending for them.
(incidentally I want your opinion on my What if Scenario, the Galactic Empire vs the Yuuzhan Vong and my Greatest Imperial Warlord in SW Discussion)
I was about to comment the other night, afore I was distracted. I'll get to it :)
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Exactly, all are likable characters. I actually quite liked Cpt/admiral piett, as well. :)
I liked Piett as well. Good fellow.
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I really want to know what happened too Garm there's no word of him at all after the vong war, would of expected him to take sides over the Corellia Independence thing, and i aware hes getting old but i cant believe that a founding member of the Rebel Alliance just up and died with out a word.
Second It's said some where on wookiepida that palpatine/clone (depending if you think it was really him) had other grand Admirals in dark empire.
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I really want to know what happened too Garm there's no word of him at all after the vong war, would of expected him to take sides over the Corellia Independence thing, and i aware hes getting old but i cant believe that a founding member of the Rebel Alliance just up and died with out a word.
Second It's said some where on wookiepida that palpatine/clone (depending if you think it was really him) had other grand Admirals in dark empire.
aye! Very true.. I wonder what happened hmm.
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Garm probably got sick of bad writers, poor plot and repetition. he said "Blast the Kriffing lot of em, I'm out." Then retired.
As to the "New" 12 Grand Admirals of the Dark Empire they were promoted to replace the others and all perished on Byss when it was destroyed by the Galaxy Gun. They were NOT the best minds in the Empire, but would have been sycophants of the "Reborn" Emperor.
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I personally would have liked to have seen Thrawn and the NR fight to a stalemate, come to terms, and then team up to take down an insane reborn Palpatine. The aftermath being that the Imperial Remnant coalesces from the combined warlords and the Pentastar Alignment under the direction and influence of GA Thrawn (or else!) and the NR agree that the Empire under Thrawn is definitely not the same as it is under Palpatine.
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Yes it does kind of tick me off that they just continue to make these guy's lives hell. I always liked Wedge, the Rogues, Wraiths, Pellaeon and Garm and really after all they've been through just wanted to see a peaceful ending for them.
I share your opinion about that AND similarly I hate LOTF/FOTJ, but I disagree that the Yuuzhan Vong War should have been the last major crisis in the galaxy. As I recall, back in the 1920's, World War 1 was called "the War to end all Wars". End all wars, it certainly did not. Not but 20 years after (Sound famailar?), the Second World War started up, and more wars continued on through time, like Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, and now the War on Terror. I believe that crisis should have continued on in the galaxy, but not in the way that Traviss/Denning/Allston did it.
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Just wondering, why do some people here dislike LOTF/FOTJ? Was it Jacen suddenly being a Sith Lord? Another Galactic Civil War rehash, I'm just curious.
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Just wondering, why do some people here dislike LOTF/FOTJ? Was it Jacen suddenly being a Sith Lord? Another Galactic Civil War rehash, I'm just curious.
I didn't really like or dislike it. It all was kind of vanilla for me. LOTF was a definite rehashing and the childish comparative between Jacen and Anakin (to which the author DIRECTLY alluded to instead of going the more low-key route of letting it either slip through the inattentive readers or being noticed by the Lore-fanatics). It ruined the entire story since you already knew that Jacen would have to die by the hand of a family member. Using Corellia and its discontent as sort of galaxy-wide problem was ridiculous. It, to make a long rant short, completely out of original ideas and I ended up seeing one of my favorite Imperial characters (Paelleon) being killed for no real good reason.
FATJ had a promising start (minus Daala being elected the fricken head of state). It even had a nice tie-in with the older story lines involving the Sith. It was interesting to think about "What if a lost tribe of the Sith did happen to come to light?" but instead of having that be the focus for our character's adventures, they invented Abeloth and then retconned a bunch of BS into saying that the Maw was created solely to keep her trapped. The entire story line about Abeloth as some sort of avatar of the Dark Side or of the Force, is, imho, quite ridiculous. They were simply trying to tie in Abeloth with the idiotic BS involving the "Brother" and "Sister" combo from TCW tv show, to further justify both. It was stupid.
Nothing would make me happier than to see a story focused entirely on the Remnant and Fel's eventual coronation to Emperor and starting the Fel Dynasty.
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who where the 12 original grand admirals and thrawn was number 13 i am guessing?
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who where the 12 original grand admirals and thrawn was number 13 i am guessing?
Look here. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Who+were+the+twelve+grand+admirals%3F)