Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Slornie on June 06, 2007, 05:36:36 AM
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i felt like a nice discussion, so here we are:
We know that Palpatine and Thrawn had very different ideals, but how would these different ideals have influenced the Empire if Thrawn had been in overall control ? And with such ideals, how would things have been different in the galaxy ?
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there would have been less or no xenophobia. Empire wouldn't have been so cruel and evil. And Thrawn would have been able to make comromizes with Imperial senate.
For starters
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how about the Rebellion/Alliance to Restore the Republic ?
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I believe Thrawn could have stopped it at its beginning. He would have met their complaints.
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the restoration of the Senate?
relinquishing control of the government ?
he would meet them ?
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He said himself he only wanted order to Galaxy in preparation for Yuuzhan Vong attack.
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but would the Senate be able to maintain that order, and prepare sufficient forces to defend the galaxy from the Vong ?
and would everyone be concerted in their efforts to maintain order, and prepare, or would the petty in-fighting, brush-wars and corruption still control the Senate and the government ?
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I believe Thrawn would end it soon. He could count on mothma, organa all of those who would otherwise become rebel leaders. Without Palpatine's cruelty and evil they don't have to rebel.
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but they were also concerned with freedom, justice and democracy - would they have been provided in Thrawn's Empire ?
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I believe so.
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how about some of the Imperial philosophies and procedures - ruling through fear, the Death Star, punishing many for the crimes of a few, etc ?
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Those were the ideals of the Emperor's Empire. As for democracy..Well it will always be a bit corrupted. Not even a guy like Thrawn can change the mind of every being in the galaxy. No matter if his ways would be seen right. In other's mind it will be seen wrong as well.
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No terror weapons would have been necessary.
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so, no Death Star, and Alderaan would still be around ?
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yes alderaan would still be around as the Death Star Was a part of the Empire's policy of ruling through fear.
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yes. It was Tarkin's idea and I think Tarkin would have never worked for Thrawn in any way.
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he probably would if he kept his position as grand moff
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but if Thrawn had been in charge, and had restored the Senate, the Moff's wouldnt exist
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i didnt think of that
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yes there would have been no need for moffs.
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still he had a position of some kind in the old republic anyway so he might of just got that
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he was a governor, and that position was awarded to him by Palpatine, as were his future promotions, if Palpatine hadnt been there he would have just been another ordinary official
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but what would happen to the rebel leaders to be
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they were all Senators werent they
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they'd probably be in the Imperial Senate because they didn't have anything to Rebels against
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Thrawn probably wouldn't have wasted resources on something as big as the Death Star in preparation for the Vong. He would have built more cruisers and the such, because a large fleet can defend a larger area than one sole moon-sized battlestation.
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and there'd be no Rebellion ;D ;D ;D
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Besides the one that would arise anyway, cause theres always someone against the current regime!
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yeah but all those leaders like Mothma and Bail Organa would have no reason to start a rebellion
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But the term "Empire" means to rule through military dominance, So technically Thrawn would be deemed an emperor...Or military "leader". How does that make him any better than Palpatine?
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There's always opposition to the current regime, no matter how good or evil it is.
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But the term "Empire" means to rule through military dominance, So technically Thrawn would be deemed an emperor...Or military "leader". How does that make him any better than Palpatine?
Well Thrawn wouldn't have oppressed other species like Palpatine. No Human-High Culture.
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Even so, People will find ruling through an Empire seen unfit. No democracy, That was one of the main causes for a Rebellion.
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maybe Thrawn could have restored some of the democratic ruling to the government
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and do you think people care do they live in democracy or empire. No. People are happy if they are allowed to live their lives in peace, without war and government oppression. Thrawn wouldn't have oppressed people and people would have been happy.
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There is never peace in an Empire. Wars will happen no matter who is leading. There will always be criminal organization. Who themselves will fight Thrawn's Empire until disbanded. At least in a democracy ruled government there can be a bargain with the criminals.
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wars arent exclusive to Empire's though - both Republics had them, and i wouldnt have thought it wise for any government to bargain with criminals
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Prime example The Hutt criminal organization, The New Republic has numerous meetings with them.
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i suppose you could also add Talon Karrde and the Smugglers Alliance as well
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hutt meetings went well. Darksaber!
Besides there will always be problems, in all government types. Republic, Democracy, Empire, Kingdom.
Thrawn's empire would have been one of the least corrupt I think in all Star Wars governments.
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Maybe, But we will never know. :(
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that's true. Unless Zahn write alternative ending for last command where Thrawn survives. And take control of the whole Galaxy.
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Well if he had takin control, and there hadnt been a war to deplete the galaxys fleets, Thrawn would have owned the Vong
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definetly. maybe suffered few minor defeats at beginnig as he didn't know their full capacity but after that he would have destroyed them
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The Jedi were a major player in the Vong war, Do you think if Thrawn has control he would allow the Jedi to have as much control as they have now?
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nowhere near that much control, they would be regulated inside the government, and might not have as much support/backing
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See I don't know if that would be a bad thing or good. It was trying to preserve the peace that was the Jedis from the old Republic eras' downfall.
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i think the main part of the Jedi 's downfall was getting too caught up in the Clone War, the Jedi shouldnt have allowed themselves to be put into the situation of leading the GAR
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Exactly my point, The whole war was to keep peace in the galaxy. The Jedi were too attached to ideals and order of the common good. Which made them blind to what was actually going on until it was too late for anything to be done.
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Thrawn would have been great help for jedi. With jedi battle meditation and force meld linked to command abilities of Thrawn....... now that is a great weapon.
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you mean kind of like what Kre'fay did with Jacen in the Vong war at that deep core retreat thing ?
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well you could already see his use of those abilities when he was using Joruus
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well you could already see his use of those abilities when he was using Joruus
My point exactly. But with more jedi involved it would be more efficient (at least I think so) and much more deadly for the enemy.
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with more Jedi the meld would theoretically be more efficient, or at least up to a point. I assume that with more Jedi joined in the meld it becomes more complicated to maintain effectively, requiring more effort from the participants, which at some stage would become too great for some (or all) to supply, at which point the meld would collapse.
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I would assume, Such masters like Yoda, Qui-Gon, and Jorus. Theoretically could sustain a Jedi Meld technique for some period of time. Although I would think Thrawn wouldn't want to have any special ability on the battleground expect wits. It wouldn't be much of a challenge then.
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good point. he enjoyed challenges
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Jorus wouldn't be able to, he wasn't as great as he liked to think.
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Bah, Jorus used the Jedi Meld technique more than anyone else.
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how can you be sure
PS how do i get a cool signature like a lot of people have been doing lately
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Joruus used Battle Meditation, a much less sophisticated version. Although in some ways it is harder, it's not nearly as hard to maintain as a battle meld. Nor is it as dangerous as a full meld.
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I would estimated that Jorus would be the practitioner of both techniques.
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the clone joruus only used battle meditation cause there weren't any other jedis around
the actual jorus used a full meld with 5 other jedi during outbound flight several times, it was so effective the six jedi took control of the minds of everyone in a full battle fleet poised against them
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and know back to the topic which is Thrawn's Empire.
Would Thrawn have been able to stop piracy or only decrease it if he would have been in command of the Galaxy?
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with stability/peace the amount of piracy would naturaly increase (along with trade, etc)
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But I think Thrawn would test his war machine against pirates before Yuuzhan Vong attack. And pirates are no match for Thrawn
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Wasn't Thrawn's ideas were to never attack first, I don't think Thrawn will willing engage a battle to show off military dominance.
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Have you read Outbound Flight? In that book it is explained that Thrawn suggested preemptive strikes against vagaari. And because pirates and smugglers would disturbe Thrawns peace, he would hunt them down. And it is not showing of, it is testing and training for ships and their crews.
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but remember that Car'das was a smuggler, and he befriended him, and made us of him, i dont think that Thrawn would go all-out against smugglers - pirates maybe
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Yes I have read Outbound Flight, and the only reason Thrawn even attempted to attack the vagaari was because of their savage ways. Normal pirates don't use living beings as shields.
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Pirates and smugglers are very different though, smugglers just avoid taxes, pirates kill and steal
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Yes I have read Outbound Flight, and the only reason Thrawn even attempted to attack the vagaari was because of their savage ways. Normal pirates don't use living beings as shields.
Didn't Thrawn say that Vagaari were thread to anyone even Chiss and they sholud be destroyed before they attack Chiss? Thrawn was the strongest advocate of preemtive strikes in Chiss Ascendancy.
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only against those that would pose a direct threat
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pirates are quite big threat to common people, traders and those who have business to attend to. And I think people want to get rid of pirates if possible, don't you?
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Pirates are just criminals with a fancy title, There is no way not even in Thrawn's Empire to eliminate crime.
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He'd probably be able to break up the biggest pirate groups if he want to though
or he could use them to his advantage, like he did with the ship thief Niles Ferrier
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He would have tried to eradicate pirates but propably he wouldn't have caught them all.
Thrawn used Ferrier only because needed ships to battle against rebels. If Thrawn had ruled the Empire there would have been no reason to steal ships. And if Thrawn had ruled I don't think he would have ruled an Empire. Maybe he would have kept the name Republic.
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And if Thrawn had ruled I don't think he would have ruled an Empire. Maybe he would have kept the name Republic.
I agree 100% with you there.
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Maybe give the senate power to do what they want but he has the overall say if he thinks something should be done
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So then that would make a Thrawn a chancellor?
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Sort of, except he could always take emergency powers or whatever whenever he wanted to and didnt really have to listen to the senate
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Yes. But he would have listened if they had important matter to solve or decide
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yeah, he was big on peace but if he knew something had to be done, he would do it, no questions asked
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True, Because he would be running a dictatorship if he didn't address every problem, People seem to have.
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If I would live in that Galaxy I would like Thrawn t rule it.
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Bah, I wouldn't want to be ruled by no one, Nor live in a society with out democracy...A dictatorship..Is still a dictatorship no matter who is in charge.
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But you have to be ruled by someone. In here Finland at this moment we are ruled by the President Tarja Halonen. In USA you are ruled by George W. Bush junior. In Russia Vladimir Putin.
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Not ruler over, just in the highest position of leadership, if we really dont like Bush, we can get rid of him
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can you? Face it everybody is ruled by someone, only rules are unruled. There is always someone saying that you can't do that or you can't go there.
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No one is ruled, President George W. Bush isn't a ruler. He is as Scarecrow63 stated a leader, he just makes and passes the highest of laws. And yes we can impeach a president with enough of votes. That is our right as citizens.
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We arent ruled, we're led
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well okay in USA you have those rights. But how about people in Iraq or Afghanistan? Do they have rights to say who they want to be their leader? NO! Because USA decides that. There are many countries where people are oppressed and they can't do nothing for it. Not that I care but it proves my point.
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well okay in USA you have those rights. But how about people in Iraq or Afghanistan? Do they have rights to say who they want to be their leader? NO! Because USA decides that.
so America decided they couldnt have Saddam.. didnt they democratically elect their new leader after he was deposed ?
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just cause they didnt vote for him doesnt mean they are ruled over
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This is already of the topic but here we go: Why did USA attack Iraq? Possible nuclear weapons that didn't even excist? Because they wanted to give freedom to the people of Iraq? NO! It was because of the oil. And Iraq is good target because nobody cares if Saddam dies (ather unfair trial). And before USA attacked we didn't hear about bomb attacks every fraking day! And now thanks to USA we have to send them help "because it is humanitary help".
And now back to the topic before some mod team member gets mad.
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Yeah back to topic, but dont blame the governments problems on us
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I don't I just ask questions.
So Thrawn's "empire" would have been great place.
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i would have liked it
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And now back to the topic before some mod team member gets mad.
:laugh:
Anyhow..if Thrawn were too take over the galaxy..What would become of The Black Sun?
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It was an outlaw criminal organization. propably Thrawn would have taken actions to bring it down.
And what is that smile face?
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after about a page and half of off-topic-ness :P
i think that while Thrawn would have allowed more freedom and self-government, as well as more democratic ruling, he would have ensured that he maintained all authority in terms of security, defence, policing and related activities.
Anyhow..if Thrawn were too take over the galaxy..What would become of The Black Sun?
Black Sun would have had a much harder time, since Thrawn would have much better control, and would have more of the military concentrated against pirates, smugglers and slavers - especially since there would not be a Rebellion to fight (we agreed on that didnt we ?).
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at least in my opinion: yes. And you are right.
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Prince Xizor was very cunning...He might had been a challenge to Thrawns' Empire.
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no more of a challenge than anyone else
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Xizor cunning? we're talking Thrawn here
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Xizor wasn't even cunning enought to win Skywalker and his friends. What chances would he have against Thrawn.
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Point Taken, Although those Skywalkers can be tricky to destroy.
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Thrawn outwitted them both.
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ive never really liked many of the main characters especially the skywalkers
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How can you not like someone like han or lando?
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all of the characters have good and bad points, but personally i dont think i have found any character in Star Wars that i really dislike.
I think that Thrawn would definitely have been able to defeat Xizor, after all Xizor was contending with Vader, and Thrawn was far superior to Vader in every way (with the exception of force powers). Of the threesome (Mara Vader and Thrawn), i think that Thrawn was worth far more to Palpatine.
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i do like han jango and oobiwan but apart from thrm im not to fond of most main characters i like to wonder about there past
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Of the threesome (Mara Vader and Thrawn), i think that Thrawn was worth far more to Palpatine.
Definetly. He was the wisest of them all, had best military knowlegde and tactics. only think where he was not that good as Mara and Vader was as already said Force powers. But he didn't need them. But still you shouldn't underestimate the importantness of Vader or Mara.
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I doubt Thrawn would have been able to take out the remaining jedi like Vader did
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And I don't think Thrawn could have posed as one of Palpatine's favourite dancing girls in public.
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im not sure that Thrawn would have wanted to take out the remaining Jedi - that was just Palpatine's pet project due to him being Sith
and i concede the dancing girl bit - but (hopefully) he wouldnt be in a position for that to be neccessary
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I doubt C'boath left a very good impression on him about the jedi
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Yeah so was Bevel Lemelisk at one point...And if I do remember correctly Palpatine had him cloned just so he could tortured and kill him in so many different ways. Palpatine held relations to know one, In the end if Palpatine wanted Thrawn dead it could have been easily done.
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true but what would thrawn do to palpatine and darth vader/anakin if it was the other way around?
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Not too sure, But I'm sure Palpatine would already have a plan to sabotage Thrawn's Empire...Not to mention Palpatine does have the power of the dark side of the force. If he had too, He would take the throne by force.
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If it was the other way around, Thrawn would figure out ow to use the force against Palpatine, like he did to the jedi on Outbound Flight
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Not to mention that Thrawn used Ysalamiri. blocking the Force.
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Yeah, if Thrawn was in control, i doubt Palpatine could have done all that much
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Since we are playing the What-if games, What if Palpatine brought back the Siths and raged war against Thrawn's Empire?
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Thrawn would have gotten those ysalmari and shielded most of his forces from the sith
And if Palpatine and the sith were against him maybe Thrawn could have used Yoda and Obi-wan, and eventually Luke
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What if they were all clones of palpatine?, Seeing he does like to clone. And the ysalamir very inefficient tool against a lightsaber :laugh:
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but without the force, that lightsaber couldn't block a blaster bolt
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You would need a incredible amount of ysalamir to make a fore bubble large enough to hold off an entire legion of Sith.
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It doesn't need to hold all Siths at once. maybe few hundreds first and then more Siths come to take place of those who have fallen.
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You only need a force bubble range of hardly 15 yards, then it would be like mowing the sith down like grass
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exactly
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ww1 star wars style :o
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And of course these is always Base Delta Zero.
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but if you had an army of Sith, they could do the same to your fleet as the Jedi at Yavin did to Daala's fleet (unless you have enough Ysalamiri to completely shroud all the ships in the fleet from the Force, but that would involve thousands of Ysalamiri, and would be highly impractical)
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But would the sith be willing to do it? You have to remember that it cost dorsk's life and no sith would give his lif?, even if it helps his/hers comrades. And Pellaeons fleet was quite small. If Thrawn would command the Empire he could use thousands of ships.
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And Thrawn would probably figure out a way to make like a ysalmari net, shielding his fleet from the sith without having them cover every single ship
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maybe taking DNA samples and searching the answer from those.
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what - add the bit of the Ysalamiri that makes them negate the Force into his clones ?
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no but add that bit of DNA to something that then has that force repelling effect and is easier to manufacture and crown/build.
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The Ysalamiri couldn't negate the force fully, They more manipulated the force through their genetic make up. For how many Ysalamiri to hold off an entire legion of Siths will be impossible to find. And do remember if we are talking about DNA manipulation, Who's to say Palpatine can't alter his own genes, To give me strength, and knowledge beyond even Thrawn himself.
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Or maybe Thrawn could start cloning ysalmari
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But would they still carry their genetic make up, Over time they won't because of evolution, Evolution gave them the gift of blocking the force for a defense measure. With out the threat of danger they will slowly start to lose that gift.
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no they won't if they are clones, pure genetic replications from the original ones.
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clones would be exactly the same as the origional, no evolution
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yes. No evolution just the same genes all over again.
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Wrong, because in the act of clone you are changing the templates genetic make up. Another example is when the clone "evolved" into Stormtroopers, They were forced to change their behavior.
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they were programmed to change their behavior.
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And what of when the Empire fell, They evolved with the time line...They weren't programmed in a act such as that.
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Stormtroopers weren't clones very much, and cloning an animal is very different from cloning a super soldier
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Not really, Biology is the same no matter what you are doing..
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I wouldn't say that cloning a human is anything similar to cloning a animal. If you clone ysalamiris you don't have to programm to them any military tactics and behavior. you just clone and put them to their trees and after that to your ships, which will be after that "Force-protected"".
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Eh, That can be catorigized into basic survival...If you try to clone Thrawn he won't be the same Thrawn..Mainly because he seen battles..That goes for troopers too..You can only program them only so far. The rest they have to be taught...And that is why cloning ysalamiris wouldn't work..They wouldn't need to have a special defense because they were born into a world with out danger.
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During the Outbond Flight project, where the Old Republic first meets Thrawn, we discover that while Thrawn is a brilliant, calculating commander, he also does not want to outright start any conflicts. The Chiss are incredibly xenophobic, and detest anyone who wants anything within their territory. They do not have any high expansion goals, only very slowly expanding. I feel that Thrawn, while picking fights that normal people would run away from (and winning), has no real power goals, and is very happy where he is. Even in the Thrawn triology, we see that he doesn't really want political power, only military command.
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The rest they have to be taught...And that is why cloning ysalamiris wouldn't work..They wouldn't need to have a special defense because they were born into a world with out danger.
But the Force repelling is in the genes and the genes are SAME. no differenses from the original ones. so where would that force thing dissappear?
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the force bubble wouldnt just disappear, evolution like that takes hundreds of thousands of years
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I guess what I am trying to say is, Cloned ysalamiris wouldn't know how to protect themselves using the force bubble thing. You're not born knowing self defense. It is something you are taught how to do. And why would cloned ysalamiri have to protect themselves when they are born into a world with out having to use that self defense measure. Sure you can alter genes to have the defense, but how would they know to use it.
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its not that they turn it on and off, its always on, its literally part of their biochemistry that creates the bubble
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yes. it is not something what they dedice to use now and now not. It isn't turned on. it's natural thing in them not something that is taught by some other ysalamiri.
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how do you that
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its not that they turn it on and off, its always on, its literally part of their biochemistry that creates the bubble
No one is born with the knowledge to do anything. They would "Have" to be taught how to defend themselves from predators..It's the rule of nature..
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humans arent taught how to breath or blink its the same with ysalamiris they do the force bubble thing automaticaly without needing to be taught as its in their gentics
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it is automatic reaction. as said before nobody taught anyone of us to breath or blink. It comes naturally.
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Animals are very different from humans, most do things on instinct, not training
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I still think there would be a Rebellion..and without Palpatine's purges, they would have even better tacticians than before..not to mention Jedi....so they could stand up to Thrawn..and perhaps overthrow him eventually. Though perhaps not as violently.
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but didnt the books say that his officers and men were loyal to him?
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Loyalty can be bought, broken, and taken.
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Not if its true loyalty, and not indoctrinated loyalty
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But I believe Jedi would have founded Thrawn a good leader for the Republic.
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I still think there would be a Rebellion..and without Palpatine's purges, they would have even better tacticians than before..not to mention Jedi....so they could stand up to Thrawn..and perhaps overthrow him eventually. Though perhaps not as violently.
Yes, it is quite possible that people would rebel against Thrawn, but if he maintained such equality and order without the fear factor - it would be far less violent, and would not be so widespread and supported.
but didnt the books say that his officers and men were loyal to him?
Yes, in The Last Command Palleaon notes that 'Yesterday the Chimarera's crew had trusted and respected the Grand Admiral. After today, they would be ready to die for him'.
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and that possible rebellion if Thrawn would rule, could propably be settled peacefully in the senate. Who would even be so stupid to rebel against Thrawn?
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What if it was more than one rebellion..Like what if one of the old Imperial war lords sees himself fit to rule..Or the Jedi decide Tharwn's ways of ruling are seen unfit. There is just so much possibilities that could be orchestrated to over rule Thrawn and his establishment.
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There are many possibilities what would have happened if Thrawn had ruled Empire instead of Palpatine. Everyone has their own ideas about it.
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Oh course, and who knows they could all be true scenarios if they were to play out accordingly.
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Maybe someone should write a book
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That would solve all our bickering...But we would still have theories and "What-Ifs" of course!
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There always will be
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Zahn could write a book about what would happen if Thrawn would be in Palpatines place. I would love to read it.
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only trouble with that is
[1] it wouldnt be 'canon' because it would completely contradict most of the other works (and thus LucasFilm wouldnt allow it)
[2] the story, events, characters would all depend on precisely when Thrawn took over - whether it be 10ABY (as in the Thrawn Trilogy), before/after Yavin or Endor, etc.
Nonetheless, it would be a great story.
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yes there would be problems to be solved to make it. But I would read it if there would be one.
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Look at Thrawn before he became an Imperial. He may have kept the democracy intact.(As Slornie said before)
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he should write a book about the ggoings on of thrawn before heir to the empire
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That is possible or maybe one with Palleon
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about how he wound up commanding a fleet of victories like 10 years later
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I meant like in the Empire's time but that is good too.
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he was probably a leitenant or an aide to thrawn
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Palleon. He was first mate on the Chimaera before Thrawn came and then when the captain died at Endor he took over
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well if that was the case then that that would make a pretty boring book ebook maybe
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But Pellaeon started his military career in the Republic Navy in the Clone Wars.
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Was that actually the same person ? i thought there was some confusion over that, with the Pallaeon from the Clone Wars having a different eye colour to the Pallaeon with Thrawn. And the Pallaeon in the Clone Wars was a captain (of an Acclamator), while the Pallaeon with Thrawn worked his way up the command ranks of a Star Destroyer and only achieved captaincy at the Battle of Endor (when the Chimeara's former captain was killed).
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an acclamator is alot different than an imp star, id say second-in-command of a destroyer would be a promotion
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it indeed would be a promotion.
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but a captain of a Carrack is no less a captain than the captain of a Star Destroyer, it is one rank - so going from captaincy of a ship to one member of another ships command staff is really a demotion.
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Well mayde because it is the same rank but it is because its saying your not getting demoted your just captain of a smaller ship in a backwater system
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it depends on their tactical knowledge and capability to comand if a captain of a patrol cruiser couldnt handle too many units because of the strain and pressure under them so they would hardly be transferred to captain of a star destroyer
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Captain is more a generic rank given when in command of a ship, even though there actual rank is different, so a patrol cruiser captain and an imperial star destroyer captain are most likely different ranks
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the term captain i belive used to define the person in charge of the vessel ex: the person in charge of a merchat vessel is the captain of that ship but holds no rank in the military
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exactly
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It was a rank as well
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But if you command ISD you have more prestige than a captain of a carrack. at least I believe so.
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if you commanded a isd theres a chance youd get transferred to a newly built say ssd but a carrack captain is more likely to take the position of a transferred isd captain
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What idiot would move someone from carack to ISD. Unless that smeone is Thrawn.