Thrawn's Revenge

Imperial Civil War [Empire at War] => Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback => Topic started by: Meyer on May 18, 2007, 01:02:02 AM

Title: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 18, 2007, 01:02:02 AM
Are you going to give them new hardpoints as you gave to the ISDs and other imperial ships?
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Dr-Ludvig on May 18, 2007, 12:46:00 PM
it would ne nice if you did like eh, some mod i cant remember the name of, where the ships have no hardpoints, just hundreds of firing bones, it looks amazing!
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: insanegolfer on May 18, 2007, 02:01:02 PM
Most likely in the future we will give them more hp's to counterbalance the imp ships, and in order to be more realistic we will keep the hp's destroyable for most ships, because they really would be able to be destroyed seperate of the ship.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 18, 2007, 02:06:15 PM
I hope you add more hardpoints to rebel ships too
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 18, 2007, 03:32:25 PM
The Rebellion was quite undergunned. The MC80s in EaW were WAY too powerful compared to the Imperial Star Destroyers. Keep in mind that until the New Republic, this was just like taking a gun, putting it onto a cruiser liner and calling it a war ship. The MC-85 is the best armed and defended ship you'll get as the Rebels, though it still takes more than one to take out an ISD, and they cost quite a bit...

Quote
it would ne nice if you did like eh, some mod i cant remember the name of, where the ships have no hardpoints, just hundreds of firing bones, it looks amazing!

I've done that before with a few ships. I didn't like it very much. Ships still have the same amount of firing bones, with or without each individual hardpoint being destructable.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: SCPX on May 19, 2007, 11:37:34 AM
In all the books, the Rebellion would almost always lose a fight with a Mon Cal Cruiser against a Imperial-Class Star Destroyer. What would give the Rebels the winning hand was that the X-Wings could deal massive damage to the cruiser without getting shot down.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 19, 2007, 11:46:07 AM
Or they had a Katana Dreadnaught handy, with the Peremptory in range...
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 19, 2007, 02:40:20 PM
Rebels are losers. Thrawn beats them all. But still rebels won every large battle. with the help of MCCs
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 19, 2007, 03:22:28 PM
And Imperial ego.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 20, 2007, 04:03:13 AM
Thrawn or Pellaeon didn't have large ego.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Dr. Knickers on May 20, 2007, 09:49:34 AM
But other Imps did
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: SCPX on May 20, 2007, 11:31:09 AM
Almost all the Imperials underestimated the Rebels. Thrawn I think is one of the few exceptions. He just overestimated his security...
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 22, 2007, 02:26:01 AM
Will you put hangars in MCCs and other rebel capital ships.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Kratas on May 22, 2007, 12:47:23 PM
no they dont deserve hangers because x wings and ywings are to tough
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 23, 2007, 09:13:54 AM
But they had hangars in real.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 23, 2007, 09:33:05 AM
just because the rebel fighters are more durable than the imperial fighters, it doesnt mean that none of the rebel ships should have hangers - and in any case, i was under the impression that most of the rebel ships had smaller starfighter complements than the imperial ships, if this is followed balance is still maintained
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 23, 2007, 09:49:52 AM
ISDs has one wing of starfighters, 6 squadrons 12 fighter each.
MCs on the other hand has various numbers
MC80 (Home One-type) has 10 squadron of 12 fighters that makes the total complement 120.
MC80 (Liberty-type) has 3 squadrons that makes 36 fighters total.
MC80a Star Cruiser has one wing a total 72 fighters.
MC80B Star Cruiser had 4 squadrons at first, that's 48 fighters, later upgraded to 8 squadron so total fighter number is 96
MC90 Star Cruiser has one wing.
And that doesn't count other rebel space ships that has hangars, like Nebulon-B.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 23, 2007, 09:53:53 AM
ok - my mistake, the rebel ships did have comparable starfighter complements - but mainly on their large capital ships, which if memory serves correctly, they didnt have that many of...

Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 23, 2007, 09:58:05 AM
Nebulon-B frigate had 24 fighters
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 23, 2007, 10:01:55 AM
24 TIE fighters, yes - which were stored in racks, but the Rebel Alliance used other fighters (such as X and Y wings) which werent compatible with the racks, so the actual fighter complement would be considerably lower, probably somewhere nearer 6

EDIT: and the 24 TIE fighters was only possible with extreme modification, the standard model had nowhere near that internal capacity
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 23, 2007, 10:08:37 AM
your propably right. But it doesn't matter if they have hangars in the game then all is fine
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 23, 2007, 03:34:28 PM
We will be going for as close as canon fighter compliments as we can, regardless of how 'overpowerd' the fighters themselves might be. Keep in mind that the Mon Calamari Cruisers can ONLY be built at Mon Calamari. They are also extremely expensive, and take a long time to build, so them getting fighters with these expensive and relatively weak ships is only fair.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Darth Dino on May 23, 2007, 07:55:30 PM
Mon Cal ships aren't weak...
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 23, 2007, 07:56:46 PM
Compared to most other capital ships they are.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Darth Dino on May 23, 2007, 08:01:17 PM
Not in my eyes, I think that they aren't as strong as Star Destroyers but they're still not weak.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 24, 2007, 12:57:04 AM
No they are not weak, in fact I find them quite useful if there is many of them.
When you say they are going to be expensive I hope that other ships too will be expensive.
But I also hope that you don't make Dreadnaught more expensive MCC, like some mods that I have played have done.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 24, 2007, 03:53:45 AM
in comparison with the Imperial capital ships, they Mon Cal Cruisers are quite weak, particularly during the Rebellion, when they were mainly converted liners.  This weakness is increased when you factor in that they are much more expensive than the Imperial capital ships - in essence you are paying more for a weaker ship.  But either way, it certainly makes Mon Calamari a big target for both/all factions.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 24, 2007, 11:22:26 AM
Only thing better in MCCs than ISDs was their shields.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 24, 2007, 11:29:01 AM
and part of that was because they had weak hulls (most of them were converted civillian ships after all), and the redundancy of having several weaker shields combined instead of one very powerful shield
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 24, 2007, 11:36:16 AM
But didn't rebels add armor plating?
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 24, 2007, 11:41:12 AM
they wont have added that much, they didnt have the time nor resources for it, and even with armour plating the hulls will still be weaker than a specially designed/made hull
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 24, 2007, 12:54:27 PM
True. Maybe their commanders just were better.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 24, 2007, 04:24:02 PM
Eh? What do you mean, MCCs would rarely (if ever) win a fight with a Star Destroyer during the Rebellion.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: insanegolfer on May 24, 2007, 04:25:38 PM
They would never win a straight up fight.  The rebels were sneaky enough that they hit the Empire where they were weak.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 25, 2007, 03:46:59 AM
But still rebels won every major and decisive battle in the Civil War. Battles of Yavin, Endor, Bilbringi.
They won the Battle of Endor even when Imperials had much bigger fleet. So there has to be reason why they won. Althought I hope Imperials had won those battles.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on May 25, 2007, 04:27:11 AM
The Battle of Yavin was a fluke, everyone knows that - if Hand and Chewie hadnt blasted Vader away, Luke wouldn't have had time to fire those proton torpedoes, so no destroyed Death Star, which means one dead Rebellion (and Yavin IV).

As for the Battle of Endor, there were (in my eyes) three key points to this victory - first, the shield generator on the Executor was destroyed, leaving it open to that Accidental bridge ramming by the A-Wing - that ship was the single largest threat to the Rebel forces after the Second Death Star.  Secondly, Thrawn's theory - Palpatine was using the force to enhance his soldiers battle efficiency, when he was distracted (and then killed) the battle enhancement was lost - leading to a lack of coordination and mass confusion among the imperial officers and crews - which the Rebel forces were able to exploit.  Third, when the Second Death Star itself was destroyed, that was a huge morale blow to the remaining Imperial forces, leading to the disjointed and uncoordinated retreat.

The Battle of Bilbringi was planned by Thrawn, it was going well for him until the ships of the Smugglers Alliance joined forces with the New Republic fleet (resulting in New Republic ships loose inside the Imperial defence perimeter).  Even then, he could have pulled off a victory - he had that cloaked Golan defence platform somewhere around.  The only reason the Imperials lost that battle was because Rukh assassinated Thrawn, and Pallaeon was not experienced and tactically adept enough to maintain the battle.
This battle is discussed in this thread:  http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php?topic=127.0

As for the Mon Calamari ships, by the time of the New Republic - the new warship designs were being produced, which to all accounts could stand up to the Imperial Star Destroyers.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 25, 2007, 05:31:22 AM
Even the morale down hey were experienced crews on those Imperial ships. they should have won the day.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: insanegolfer on May 25, 2007, 09:24:55 AM
Please stay on topic.  That should be in a topic for the battle of Bilbringi.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 25, 2007, 01:32:48 PM
All what is said up there confirms to me that there was something good in MC80s against ISDs
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on May 25, 2007, 04:18:28 PM
The outcome at endor had very little to do with the MCCs... Definately not with superior Rebel commanders.... There were four Grand Admirals there.

Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 26, 2007, 01:33:51 AM
But one them died at the DSII two of them fled and one was captured by the rebels and executed.
And if there were so many grand admirals how could imperials lose?
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: insanegolfer on May 26, 2007, 11:05:21 AM
Stay on topic or the posts that are off topic will be deleated.  Your post count will be reduced accordingly.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Kratas on May 26, 2007, 11:24:55 AM
well ive never lost a isd against an mon cal cruisr i just think its tactics of which i am good at
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 26, 2007, 12:38:10 PM
I've never lost an ISd or MCC on battle. I usually lose every other ship though
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Kratas on May 26, 2007, 04:09:56 PM
i wouldnt say every but back to topic does anybody else think mcc's are pretty boring i mean they arnt what you think of when you think futuristic
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on May 26, 2007, 05:06:25 PM
I think they look cool.

In earlier it was mentioned that MCC shileds were quite weak. How is it then said in the book Balance Point that "Mon Cal cruisers' shields were legendary - almost invincible"?
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on June 19, 2007, 01:13:56 PM
Where did anyone say they had weak shields?
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Zeron on June 19, 2007, 01:15:45 PM
They had weaker shields than ISDs....their only advantage was multiple shield generators and backup shields.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on June 20, 2007, 09:44:09 AM
Overall, the multiple shield generators (while individaully weaker) generated a stronger shield, which would remain in operation even if one (or more) generator(s) were destroyed, whereas the Imperial ships had one powerful generator (which if destroyed leaves the ship with no shields).

Which begs the question why Home One in EAW/FoC had a shield generator, and why in the TR minimod, the new Mon Cal cruisers for the Rebel Alliance had shield generators.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Zeron on June 20, 2007, 02:11:56 PM
Even together they were still weaker than the ISDs shield. While they had multiple shield generators...ISDs had one helluva powerful single one.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: GrndAdmrlPellaeon on June 21, 2007, 10:46:37 PM
I think they should make newer and better ships for the rebels
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Zeron on June 21, 2007, 11:16:24 PM
That sorta goes against them being..well...Rebels. They didn't have that many resources at all. In fact, they owned inhabited worlds besides Mon Calamari. All the Mon Calamari could do was convert a few passenger liners.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Scarecrow63 on June 22, 2007, 12:34:09 AM
It'd be more realistic for the rebels ships to have kind of a random hardpoint generator
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on June 22, 2007, 01:45:40 AM
I think that would be hard to make
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: GrndAdmrlPellaeon on June 22, 2007, 10:43:06 AM
It could be possible but i dont think it will happen. there is more important stuff to do
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Scarecrow63 on June 22, 2007, 01:39:24 PM
I know it wont happen, but if anything rebels should have less uniform ships, not better ones
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Slornie on June 22, 2007, 01:41:11 PM
unfortunately the limitations of the game probably prevent much variety in ships.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: GrndAdmrlPellaeon on June 22, 2007, 04:34:04 PM
I agree, because the idiots relied on one speciec to produce there most powerful ships and the best they got were converted cruiseliners which is equivilent to mounting guns on an ocean liner
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Zeron on June 22, 2007, 04:48:30 PM
Idiots? The Mon Cal were the only chance they had at capital ships. They had few resources, and anyone else capable of making capital ships were Imperial.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Scarecrow63 on June 22, 2007, 05:58:09 PM
Mon Cal was their only thing closest to a shipyard they could use
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: GrndAdmrlPellaeon on June 22, 2007, 09:28:55 PM
I guess you could excuse them for being poverty stricken losers
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Corey on June 22, 2007, 09:41:01 PM
Or freedom fighters that were constantly being hunted by a Galaxy-spanning Empire with seemingly unlimited resources and over 25,000 capital ships. Your pick.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on June 24, 2007, 08:49:31 AM
I think Moncalamari did good job with those ships. Thought I prefer they had been used by the Empire.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: GrndAdmrlPellaeon on June 24, 2007, 09:50:24 AM
The only reason they had weapons on the MCs is because of the rebels.
Title: Re: Mon Calamari ships
Post by: Meyer on June 24, 2007, 11:06:11 AM
yep. weak weapons to ships with good shields.