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Topic Summary

Posted by: Hairybum74
« on: February 16, 2018, 10:26:19 PM »

This game really wasn't what anyone expected. They expected some awesome, content heavy, Star Wars FPS, but instead got a game where you need to buy DLC to have fun. Also, the story sucked. Long Story Short, the game kinda sucked.
Posted by: fireball900
« on: February 12, 2018, 09:54:02 PM »

According to Hask they were evacuating the planet. They started with personnel then civilians which begs the question. Where did these people evacuated go? Vardos somehow still was loyal to the Empire but i am not entirely sure.

One example was when the rebellion began bombing Coursant and killing civilians. They also took out vengeance family members of Imperials in order to force Imperials to surrender.

What bothers me the most is that why Iden and Del were pardon for all the warcrimes they commited being th e elite memebers of the Empire, while low level officers were excuted? What is this bullshit?

The bullshit known as 'politics'
Posted by: Lukii0141
« on: February 12, 2018, 11:30:14 AM »

I think the legends story is way better than disneys "new" canon story and the BF II campaign wasnt that good story wise. It would be better if iden didnt switcht the sides.
Posted by: Pali
« on: February 12, 2018, 03:48:03 AM »

I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.

I missed the question, but this is largely my answer.  I'd only add that there is also a significant difference not only in intent but also in execution.  Bombing the factory kills the workers as an unfortunate byproduct of serving a military goal (reducing your enemy's capacity to wage war), but if you've already captured the factory then there is no longer a legitimate military purpose to be served by harming the former workers - your enemy's capacity for war will not be harmed by the act.  The very ruthless might argue that dealing with prisoners diminishes your own capacity to wage war, and they aren't entirely wrong in that as you do have to devote resources to securing and maintaining captives, but pretty much every international treaty regarding rules of war has refused such reasoning as inhumane - and the strategic fallout of such massacres can make one's overall military situation worse, as knowing that they will not be treated well will reduce the willingness of enemy soldiers and civilians to surrender, while simultaneously harming one's situation politically by making it far more difficult to claim any moral high ground over one's foes.  German soldiers in WWII were FAR more willing to surrender to UK or US troops than they were to Soviet ones, and with good reason.
Posted by: Squasher04
« on: February 11, 2018, 09:58:37 PM »

If the campaign was longer it would help to sooth Iden's transition that was first started in her book
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: January 24, 2018, 04:07:06 PM »

I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.
According to Hask they were evacuating the planet. They started with personnel then civilians which begs the question. Where did these people evacuated go? Vardos somehow still was loyal to the Empire but i am not entirely sure.

One example was when the rebellion began bombing Coursant and killing civilians. They also took out vengeance family members of Imperials in order to force Imperials to surrender.

What bothers me the most is that why Iden and Del were pardon for all the warcrimes they commited being th e elite memebers of the Empire, while low level officers were excuted? What is this bullshit?
Posted by: Pentastar Enforcer
« on: January 24, 2018, 01:33:56 PM »

I'm just dropping my 2 cents here: I haven't liked much of anything produced in the new canon, starting with and including star wars the clone wars (I know that it's bad to say that). While I actually enjoyed TFA quite a bit, seeing it 9 times in theaters alone, and Rogue One was astounding, the rest of the produced material has been less than stellar in my humble opinion, if not horrible, especially when looking at the overall story of Star Wars past episode 6 and the science, lore, etc. While TFA really was a carbon copy of ANH, I still found it generally enjoyable as ANH was good. I found TLJ to be pretty bad. I like calling it a really bad good movie because of what it does, from Admiral Holdo to flying Leia, Canto Bight, Bad jokes, etc. But I hate TLJ because of what it does to the overall story of the new canon, as well as it pretty much flipping the bird at the established stuff that we uber nerds love, and the stupid stuff with the star wars physics being changed and warped to fit the crappy story. I could complain about that but we all know what happened there.

I have the same opinion, if not a worse one of the TV shows, The Clone Wars to me was very meh, I really don't like the individualistic clones being controlled by mind control chips and the general numbers that don't make sense , i.e 2m clones being able to successfully fight 5qui battle droids, but whatever. I never liked Ashoka very much, or Grievous being a whimp, the peaceful mandalorians and the huge focus on them, the father, son, daughter, etc. Rebels takes my distaste of this stuff up like 10 notches, and it just gets so cringey, and it controls so much of the canon now, Thrawn, Maul, the Mandalorian fanboyism, Giant Wolves, etc. It's all being thrown in the trash by the writing team.

The new books are really bad too at explaining what happened after Endor until TFA, none of it really makes sense, and tends to be pretty unclear, has a lack of focus, and is just pretty bad in general. This extends to the story of Iden Versio in BF2, another horrible story (though I like the game itself). I could go on but I'd just be ranting more.

What I'm trying to get at is that the new story is really not as strong as the old canon was in most places, rogue one being my biggest exception. The new canon definitely has it's pro's but overall really sucks, and has trashed a lot of stuff that was good in the original canon, like Thrawn :(. I'm definitely seeing a downward trend in the quality of star wars stories, usually because of the direction of Kathleen Kennedy, the new authors, and my personal favorite, Dave Filoni. Rian Johnson's stuff wasn't too great imo either. I still enjoy a lot of the stuff, seeing A-Wings and TIE Fighters, Kylo Ren, Death Troopers, etc. but the overall arc of the new canon is just badly disorganized and weak. While it does pretty much only affect us at the moment, the distaste in star wars will grow, there aren't a ton of us nerd types here, definitely not like us, but there are a lot of strong star wars nerds that are unhappy with the current trend. Hopefully the quality drop can change, maybe removal of Kathleen Kennedy?? I don't know, I just want to see this stuff fixed.

Rant Over :)
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: January 24, 2018, 01:10:26 PM »

Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?

I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.
Posted by: Meyer
« on: January 24, 2018, 12:49:12 PM »

A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.

Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 21, 2018, 06:36:52 PM »

I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.

I'd have to read these stories to levy judgments, because context always matters.  Though I tend to be accepting of stealing from people to fund a resistance, or hiring mercs when needed.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: January 20, 2018, 08:01:59 PM »

You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?).  Am I incorrect here?  Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?
I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.
I will go over each group now.

Partisans: Founded by Saw Gerra based on his lessons under Anakin Skywalker in gerrila warfare, the partisans were not kicked out persay but they acted more independent which is why their intel was better than the entire alliances. They are known for both their brutally, and how more terrifed people were of them then the Empire. Following the events fo Rogue One the partisans split into two subfactions: The dreamers who were wiped out by Inferno Squadron, and some Partisans who stayed under Two Tubes. Two Tubes partisns returned to the ruin city of Jedah and built a base on the opposite side of Jedah. They later were welcomed fully back into the Alliance by Leia, Luke and Han Solo for a reason i dont fully understand other than the need for more men.


Free Ryloth Movement: This group was formed by Cham Syndulla from the remnants of the Twlek Resistance. They were considered extremists because they would often assault and murder Imperial officers in bars, houses, and public places. They also would kill people associated with said officers as a message. They are also known for not being very trusting to other rebel groups, but they still were represented in the rebel alliance. The attacks by this organization were often targeted at medical faliticties(both civilian and non civilian) and also would steal imperial WMDs.

Death Watch: Ahhh Death Watch. They started out as terrorist fighting the Mandolairan Goverment under duchess Satine and they contiued fighting past that into the days of the Empie. They are known for both their bruatality and without mercy attitudes towards their enemies. The Saxons one of the clans turned on House Vizla/Death Watch because they realize two things(1. They were being used and 2. they were dying to put a traitor and criminal on the throne.) The Saxons joined the Empire along with other Mandolrians(most were from the pacfist goverment). Death Watch is repsonisble for alot of the cvilia war between various Mandolrians clans and they have wiped out quiet a few of them already. They also tageted the capital with bombings and assainations of Mandolrians who were suspected of working for the Empire.

Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: January 20, 2018, 03:40:09 PM »

Also the forced conscription of children.
Exactly
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 20, 2018, 03:08:33 PM »

If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.

Also the forced conscription of children.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: January 20, 2018, 09:38:48 AM »

If those friends are American, you may want to point out next time the subject comes up that the Revolutionary War was a rebellion, and that George Washington and most of the Founding Fathers were fighting against their lawful government - and that many were motivated as much by greed and not wanting to pay taxes to Britain after it had just fought a war that largely enriched the colonies as they were any freedom-based ideology.  Do they also think the American Revolutionary War was just a bunch of evil terrorists running amok?

Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above).  ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards.  The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.

If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.
Posted by: Pali
« on: January 20, 2018, 12:13:02 AM »

Medical supplies for soldiers are something I view as a legit target for a resistance group - the targets being harmed are military ones.  Likewise silencing contacts, including the way Cassian did at the beginning of R1, because a single security leak can doom an entire resistance group.  Resistance groups have to play by different rules than a govt. supported professional military because they cannot win a straight-up fight.  Many of their actions may well be horrible in some way or another, but the question is whether a group happily embraces such tactics or does so out of regrettable necessity.  The argument can also be made that in a state of total war, civilians are legitimate targets to a certain extent - the Allies didn't bomb Axis cities for fun, they did it to diminish industrial capacity and civilian support for the war effort.  A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.

You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?).  Am I incorrect here?  Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?
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