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Topic Summary

Posted by: Corey
« on: June 16, 2017, 03:34:56 AM »

They're all fair game as far as we're concerned. The first releases will be a bit lighter on heroes for dev purposes. Anyone associated with the Trade Fed or CIS has a much higher chance of popping up at some point considering how much less they have than the Republic, and I don't think we wanna go as deep down the rabbit hole of random Jedi and Clone heroes that some of the other CW mods go through. We used to have a poll on the forums in the first go-round where we let the community vote on some of the edge cases/roster fillers (we obviously need people like Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan), so I may resurrect that now, actually.
Posted by: taupin121
« on: June 16, 2017, 03:10:25 AM »


For me too, The Essential Guide to Warfare and The Essential Atlas are holy books. That's sure the Clone Wars era had so much ground heroes for both sides but few space heroes. So I understand your pragmatic way for game design and how it transcend my dogmatic view of the timeline and the community. But I still prefer playing with heroes such as Durge and Quilan Vos than with Maul and Ashoka :P
Posted by: Corey
« on: June 15, 2017, 02:11:17 PM »

Quote
well for Story scripting that is kind of easy you could make like how Leia gets the hapes to join The NR. Send Maul and Oppress to a planet they wont be acess for a week or 2 and when they return you get acess

I don't think you understand what that actually entails. It's more complicated than that, and that's with a faction that can properly use story scripting. Especially when you're suggesting that this faction really only gets units at all through other factions being part of it, it doesn't have a core roster.

Quote
to be fair if they control mandalore then they have access to MandalMotors and Mandal Hypernautics
so maybe you could design ships based on what these companies

No, that would be overwriting canon, as opposed to expanding on it. With the Empire of the Hand, we know they had a fleet, we just didn't know what was in it. With the Mandalorians, they didn't have a significant fleet, the Supercommandos won, so Death Watch's ambitions were stopped, and the New Mandalorians were governing, so they were pacifist. We can't just design stuff we think MandalMotors might have been making at the time, because we know for a fact they were making nothing of consequence. The only way Mandalore would have started building up a fleet is if Death Watch had won the civil war initially, which would mean they wouldn't have joined some random underground criminal organization which almost immediately fell apart.

The bottom line is, they would not have had access to any significant naval power.

Quote
And yes Filoni and TCW destroyed this period, while Leland Chee and others were trying to heal the wounds with retcons. I ignored TCW since the "movie" until they put me the nose in it in FotJ. Only last year I had the fortitude to watch the show... For me this belongs to the Story Group Canon and should have nothing to do with Legends, trying to integrate it into the former Expanded Universe was the biggest masquerade ever saw in SW history.

Quote
For the FotR, frankly I am far less interested in it than in ICW, so I wouldn't be much bothered if the dev team chose to go for the TCW version but that would be a little sad as, if so it will be close to a Story Group Canon view of this period and that's the actual trend. It would be better for the Legends to still live a little through mods such as ICW.

Above anything else, the main source for not just FotR but ICW as well, since it came out, has been the Essential Guide to Warfare. This will likely stay the case. That book provides the most consistent overall view of the universe, introduced a lot of useful ideas, and has driven the mod's direction for the better part of 5 years. Some of it comes from pre-existing materials, some does come from the cartoon.

You again have to keep in mind, this is not the only era in Star Wars with conflicts. Also, the Clone Wars themselves are a fraction of what Fall of the Republic actually covers. It's the last 3 years of a mod covering almost 50 years. This is not a new problem for us to have to deal with. Hell, even the idea of the "Clone Wars" put forward in the Thrawn trilogy conflicts with all future versions of the Clone War. There's never been an overall treatment of any era, not just the Clone Wars, which successfully retcons everything. We're going to use as much as we can from the pre-existing Legends, but in places where that conflicts, we already have to make a determination, and there's a significant pool of planets, vehicles, vessels and heroes that the cartoon offers which we wouldn't be able to use if we just decided to disregard that. The faction rosters would be far too thin. That is the main use of the cartoon, when there's slots that need filling and they offer a good solution (there's no reason not to use stuff like the Malevolence, Admiral Trench, etc when the CIS pre-cartoon was such a thin faction). When there's significant difference in events, we will typically go with:

Essential Guide to Warfare -> Pre-existing timeline -> Cartoon

There's a lot of stuff in the differences between the timelines, again, that is irrelevant to the mod entirely. The mod doesn't deal with individual battles- it's a sandbox game, so ultimately, it doesn't impact the mod if Anakin fights Ventress on Yavin or not, or if Anakin got his scar earlier in the war than his duel with Ventress in the comics. The mod doesn't and can't have that sort of granularity. The mod doesn't and can't care whether the ARC Troopers were made or trained beyond if they get mentioned in the tooltip. Where people were during Order 66 doesn't matter, who specifically survives vs goes into hiding does a little bit, but that had already been questionable earlier on.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 15, 2017, 11:10:19 AM »

For the FotR, frankly I am far less interested in it than in ICW, so I wouldn't be much bothered if the dev team chose to go for the TCW version but that would be a little sad as, if so it will be close to a Story Group Canon view of this period and that's the actual trend. It would be better for the Legends to still live a little through mods such as ICW.
just saying we moved off of that already Cory already explain it to us


Now, for the Shadow Collective. We haven't decided how to handle them, if at all. Some of the groups within it may make decent factions on their own, but as a cohesive entity it has problems. Some are story and unit based, where those factions can only themselves become viable if there's certain other factors existing which gives them the options for a functional fleet which would then mean they wouldn't have wanted to join the Shadow Collective in the first place. So, giving them a functional fleet is next to impossible. Because:

That's the thing, they really didn't have unique ships at that point. The Black Sun didn't have their own ships of significant size. You can't just take the GCW approach of pirates having outdated Clone Wars tech, for obvious reasons. There's absolutely nothing on the Pyke Syndicate. The Hutts only returned to manufacturing their old ship classes when they were facing an existential threat and returned to producing (or at least fielding) the Batil, Chelandions and Terradas from the Hutt-Xim conflict. The Death Watch had certain traditionalist approaches that mean they had other options, but in order for them to have been in a position to use those, they'd have to be in a much stronger position, and therefore would not be in the Shadow Collective in the first place.

It also wouldn't make sense to design a roster like we did with the Hand because that clearly wasn't something they did, either. Some problems are also technical based on the difficulty of trying to form a faction out of previously disparate groups, which is gonna be hard enough to do just for the CIS, which has a more straightforward progression. If anything, they'd have to just exist in GCs starting after its formation but before its dissolution. Really though, the Shadow Collective had decent ground forces available, but it was not a traditional military power. At least, not in space.
well for Story scripting that is kind of easy you could make like how Leia gets the hapes to join The NR. Send Maul and Oppress to a planet they wont be acess for a week or 2 and when they return you get acess

to be fair if they control mandalore then they have access to MandalMotors and Mandal Hypernautics
so maybe you could design ships based on what these companies
you also have common ships like dreadnaughts, Cr90s(or blockade runners), Gozantizs, and even old republic ships still use by groups like the Slave Empire form that one episode.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 15, 2017, 10:47:14 AM »

For the FotR, frankly I am far less interested in it than in ICW, so I wouldn't be much bothered if the dev team chose to go for the TCW version but that would be a little sad as, if so it will be close to a Story Group Canon view of this period and that's the actual trend. It would be better for the Legends to still live a little through mods such as ICW.
just saying we moved off of that already Cory already explain it to us
Posted by: taupin121
« on: June 15, 2017, 04:11:17 AM »

If some think the pre-2008 content is compatible with the 2008-2014 content, I urge to have a look at Nathan P. Butler's timeline : http://www.starwarsfanworks.com/timeline/download.html.

It explains clearly that you have to chose between the multimedia CW projet (CW cartoon, Republic,...) and TCW because they are absolutely incompatible (and TCW is hardly compatible with the rest of the Legends and I don't found it coherent with the movies at some points).

Ok, there's the pre-May 2013 retcons but most of them are stupid and they do not cover everything.

And yes Filoni and TCW destroyed this period, while Leland Chee and others were trying to heal the wounds with retcons. I ignored TCW since the "movie" until they put me the nose in it in FotJ. Only last year I had the fortitude to watch the show... For me this belongs to the Story Group Canon and should have nothing to do with Legends, trying to integrate it into the former Expanded Universe was the biggest masquerade ever saw in SW history.

For the FotR, frankly I am far less interested in it than in ICW, so I wouldn't be much bothered if the dev team chose to go for the TCW version but that would be a little sad as, if so it will be close to a Story Group Canon view of this period and that's the actual trend. It would be better for the Legends to still live a little through mods such as ICW.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 15, 2017, 01:08:54 AM »

to be fair if they control mandalore then they have access to MandalMotors and Mandal Hypernautics
so maybe you could design ships based on what these companies
you also have common ships like dreadnaughts, Cr90s(or blockade runners), Gozantizs, and even old republic ships still use by groups like the Slave Empire form that one episode.
Posted by: Corey
« on: June 15, 2017, 12:07:46 AM »

Quote
Secondly wasn't the Black Sun redicously weak? They were easy to crush in Empire At War in all but one map, Xisor got ahhilated after Vader was sick of him, and in the Old Republic era they couldn't even expand off Tattoine.

You have to take the EaW stuff with a grain of salt here, the mechanics in the game only allow for so much. They were a criminal organization, not an actual military power, and trying to represent them in a game where that's what it's about is gonna end up that way regardless.

Quote
and the Death Watch couldn't be over two hundred strong (could be wrong.)

They were smaller by the time of the Clone Wars (probably still bigger than 200) but that was also decades after they lost the Civil War. That war stretched accross several worlds, mostly inside the Mandalorian Sector, and was based on their desire to become galaxy-wide crusaders again, at a time before the Clone and Droid armies were being fielded, so it's not like they'd be playing catch-up (look how big of a problem Stark became around the same time). They wouldn't have been able to compete after having already lost the Civil War and the CIS/GAR were gearing up, but in a situation where Death Watch beats the Supercommandos in the Civil War and starts re-militarizing with the resources of the Mandalorian Sector entirely under their control, they could arguably have become a viable power again. Certainly could be an interesting long-term possibility for early-era or era-progressive GCs...
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: June 15, 2017, 12:01:00 AM »

I don't really like the retcons of the CGI show (ARCs being selected instead of created, the Mandalorian retcon in it's entirety, the microchip retcon in it's entirety.) Too many disruptions for me.

Secondly wasn't the Black Sun redicously weak? They were easy to crush in Empire At War in all but one map, Xisor got ahhilated after Vader was sick of him, and in the Old Republic era they couldn't even expand off Tattoine. Maul couldn't get enough Nightsisters to form a sizable army from what I know (could be wrong) and the Death Watch couldn't be over two hundred strong (could be wrong.) 1 million Clone units, and over ten times that many battle droids.
Posted by: Corey
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:53:44 PM »

Quote
Ultimately this is a fandom mod and lets be honest we have broken this rule before:
examples:
The Empire of the hand ships
ship desgins
etc
it is a bit hypocritical for you to support fandom ships but no support something that contdicts something else

First, there is a difference between this and dealing with areas where there's contradictory information. Yes, the EotH ships are things we introduced, however they're introduced based on existing canon information, not running counter to it. We know, for example, that the empire of the Hand had a fleet. We also know that fleet did not just consist of Imperial hardware, and that having it do so would contradict existing information. Therefore, their inclusion required filling certain holes, and filling holes is different from overwriting something- any new piece of Star Wars media will fill holes. Every game, book, whatever else, will introduce new content to the universe, not just retreat existing stuff. We have always been careful to make sure that's what we're doing, not to overwrite the canon stuff, so to use that as a justification for overwriting stuff or disregarding it doesn't really fly with us. Our approach is, and we have been very consistent in saying this, "what is in the universe, and what areas could be fleshed out more?" Not, "we're going to overwrite the existing canon with our own stuff." Otherwise, you'd have to apply the same criticism to every bit of SW media that ever tried to expand on something instead of just re-telling the movies.

There are certain situations, especially with smaller factions, where we allow some growth on the condition that they get more powerful than they did in canon, especially in FotR eventually, but that's more a result of the sandbox nature of the game, and in line with the goals of those groups and what their goals were had they expanded or faced certain other situations earlier (for example, Death Watch had a very specific goal at a time where, had they won the Civil War, the Republic would not have been in a position to shut them down immediately- certainly a situation the mod could explore).

That being said:
Quote
I mean last I checked Corey had like a whole list of things that the Clone Wars violated in terms of canonicity, one of which was Maul you know, dying at Theed and his nervous system being preserved to make a tech ghost.

A lot of people may be making assumptions as to what our perceptions are, but I'm not aware of us making such a list. I don't see the Maul thing as particularly problematic, for example- it doesn't really contradict anything, infinities stories had played around with the idea to the point that it was inevitable, and Star Wars is built around characters not actually being dead when you'd think they should be, by different means of varying believability. I certainly don't find Maul's survival any more offensive an idea than Palpatine's. Probably less so, but a lot of the Post-Endor period relies on that story arc. The bigger issues are things like when Adi Gallia, Eeth Koth, Even Piell etc die.


Yes, there are some contradictions within the Clone Wars cartoon and the rest of Legends Clone Wars era stuff (which, don't forget, also had significant contradictions within itself long before the Clone Wars cartoon came along- it's not as simple as old Legends vs Clone Wars Cartoon version of Legends), but it is still part of Legends, and fills in a lot of holes that would otherwise exist for both stories and rosters. We will ultimately try to do our best to retcon it together where possible, and in some cases, make our best determination as to what makes the most sense for the mod.

Quote
Actually, you have to understand that the entirety of Mandalore was completely rewritten

Mandalore is certainly at least a bit of an issue here, but I don't think it's anywhere near as big an issue as, say, Karen Traviss made it out to be. They'd already started on retconning that in a pretty satisfactory way (partially by just pointing out that the entire planet wouldn't look the exact same, and that the parts that are radioactive desert resulted from the damage done in the Excision- perfectly reasonable, as retcons go). The Mandalorian Supercommandos as a military offshoot (reacting to remaining Death Watch-esque groups) of the New Mandalorians fits just fine with the pre-existing broader narrative, which is what the mod is primarily concerned with; certain individual details, which is where contradictions get messiest, tend to be below the mod's level of granularity as far as what we're capable of representing in EaW in the first place.


Now, for the Shadow Collective. We haven't decided how to handle them, if at all. Some of the groups within it may make decent factions on their own, but as a cohesive entity it has problems. Some are story and unit based, where those factions can only themselves become viable if there's certain other factors existing which gives them the options for a functional fleet which would then mean they wouldn't have wanted to join the Shadow Collective in the first place. So, giving them a functional fleet is next to impossible. Because:

Quote
This faction keep i mind is back by various groups with unique ships like the hutts, the black sun, pykes, and death watch so we need to be creative.

That's the thing, they really didn't have unique ships at that point. The Black Sun didn't have their own ships of significant size. You can't just take the GCW approach of pirates having outdated Clone Wars tech, for obvious reasons. There's absolutely nothing on the Pyke Syndicate. The Hutts only returned to manufacturing their old ship classes when they were facing an existential threat and returned to producing (or at least fielding) the Batil, Chelandions and Terradas from the Hutt-Xim conflict. The Death Watch had certain traditionalist approaches that mean they had other options, but in order for them to have been in a position to use those, they'd have to be in a much stronger position, and therefore would not be in the Shadow Collective in the first place.

It also wouldn't make sense to design a roster like we did with the Hand because that clearly wasn't something they did, either. Some problems are also technical based on the difficulty of trying to form a faction out of previously disparate groups, which is gonna be hard enough to do just for the CIS, which has a more straightforward progression. If anything, they'd have to just exist in GCs starting after its formation but before its dissolution. Really though, the Shadow Collective had decent ground forces available, but it was not a traditional military power. At least, not in space.
Posted by: Mr.Puerto
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:27:54 PM »

Why you guys so harsh on him? FFS guys this guy DID A LOT FOR YOU. honestly why do people hate him so much? HE WAS TOLD BY LUCASFILMS to go ahead they did not stop him. You all seem to have this stance that he is a "evil" guy, but really it has been stated before how the canon works so let me remind you According to starwars.com, George Lucas, The Lucasfilm story group, and other sources:
If their is a contradict it was either:
A. Retcon
B. Sorted out with one overtaking the other.
C. both were non-canon.
(while some aren't sorted out some are difficult to retcon)

StarWars.com confirmed that Darth Maul had survived the Battle of Naboo
now he is the nail in the coffin
The Holocron continuity database provides this way to determine how to deal with this issue.
G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon
this was how continuity is determined.
G-canon: The Movies in short, nothing should really contradict them and they are always canon.
T-canon: Both the 2003 Clone Wars Cartoon and Clone wars TV show
C-canon: Books, comics, games, etc. but more recent works.
S-canon: older books like marvel star wars comics from way back in the day
D was Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.[11]
N was Non-Canon. What-if stories unless another canonical work referenced it and it was declared canon.
basically here is how we should be ranking how we treat our cannon


Also really It would be a waste not to include Maul and his faction and if you are picking and choosing your making a more confusing mess.Yeah And let me ask you something. If that is true then what about all other canonity problems between books?
and again this is not Dave's fault it is the fault of the story group for not being specific and most of the clone wars cannonity was a mess. Not true:
1st: Disney DESTROYED THE EU. Dave Floini had at least some respect. he included the Commandos who are now canon and was plaining on including groups like the vong, reavn, Bane, so forth.
2nd: George Lucas had some stories taken out of canon.


Ultimately this is a fandom mod and lets be honest we have broken this rule before:
examples:
The Empire of the hand ships
ship desgins
etc
it is a bit hypocritical for you to support fandom ships but no support something that contdicts something else
Disney has no creative control over Star Wars you do know that right? There is a special storyboard committee within Lucasflims (the company) that comes together and writes the rough ideas of the Star Wars universe. Then it gets approved by Disney (or Lucas Marketing) (very qualified people), then they choose the creators for these stories. I mean you even wrote this down but yet you still blame Disney for something they never did.   David did nothing expect bring in fan favorite legends character into crappy shows, just for the fan hype. If he actually cared about these characters he would involve them into overall story arcs, not just one off 5 second spotlights or one episodes such as the Republic Commandos.

Even Thrawn was poorly executed, why would you think of bringing in such a complex character into a shitty kids show? That only limits his possibilities and story. And this was shown in the book Thrawn, it was not as kid friendly. It would be much better to save him until after Rebels was done, then bring him into a show that wasn't kid friendly.

They honestly should've put someone else in charge, the problem that Lucasflims has is that they do not want to take risks with the franchise because they are extremely scared of sinking such a big extremely easy to sink franchise. If you would have someone more qualified and experienced with storytelling and big universes on Star Wars would be so much better off.

Also this isn't elitist mind set, there is some good stuff in cannon, however it could've been so much better if they actually did better with the franchise. If anything your blind and unfounded hate for Disney is pretty elitist.

I get what you're saying but you have to understand when dealing with Star Wars you have to have really good direction and story telling or else it'll just flop. Bringing in random characters just for the hype is not a good long term idea.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:08:16 PM »

okay I like to apologize I meant no did respect but it just frustrates me with this elitist mind set, which to be fair we are all guilty of even myself since I have a huge bias against the aftermath books and how they suck and the x-wing and thrawn books are better.

btw lets not try and derail this thread again please.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: June 14, 2017, 11:03:04 PM »

Why you guys so harsh on him? FFS guys this guy DID A LOT FOR YOU. honestly why do people hate him so much? HE WAS TOLD BY LUCASFILMS to go ahead they did not stop him. You all seem to have this stance that he is a "evil" guy, but really it has been stated before how the canon works so let me remind you According to starwars.com, George Lucas, The Lucasfilm story group, and other sources:
If their is a contradict it was either:
A. Retcon
B. Sorted out with one overtaking the other.
C. both were non-canon.
(while some aren't sorted out some are difficult to retcon)

StarWars.com confirmed that Darth Maul had survived the Battle of Naboo
now he is the nail in the coffin
The Holocron continuity database provides this way to determine how to deal with this issue.
G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, N-canon and D-canon
this was how continuity is determined.
G-canon: The Movies in short, nothing should really contradict them and they are always canon.
T-canon: Both the 2003 Clone Wars Cartoon and Clone wars TV show
C-canon: Books, comics, games, etc. but more recent works.
S-canon: older books like marvel star wars comics from way back in the day
D was Detours Canon, used for material hailing from Star Wars Detours.[11]
N was Non-Canon. What-if stories unless another canonical work referenced it and it was declared canon.
basically here is how we should be ranking how we treat our cannon


Also really It would be a waste not to include Maul and his faction and if you are picking and choosing your making a more confusing mess.
Actually, you have to understand that the entirety of Mandalore was completely rewritten by the evil that is Dave Filoni, among many other things. Filoni ruined Star Wars long before Disney bought it.
Yeah And let me ask you something. If that is true then what about all other canonity problems between books?
and again this is not Dave's fault it is the fault of the story group for not being specific and most of the clone wars cannonity was a mess.
Edit: David Filoni has done more damage to the Star Wars Universe than anyone else so far.
Not true:
1st: Disney DESTROYED THE EU. Dave Floini had at least some respect. he included the Commandos who are now canon and was plaining on including groups like the vong, reavn, Bane, so forth.
2nd: George Lucas had some stories taken out of canon.


Ultimately this is a fandom mod and lets be honest we have broken this rule before:
examples:
The Empire of the hand ships
ship desgins
etc
it is a bit hypocritical for you to support fandom ships but no support something that contdicts something else
Posted by: Mr.Puerto
« on: June 14, 2017, 06:01:49 PM »

I think that previous stories would override the clone wars cartoon in this case, though it is of course the teams decision.
Well the David/Lucas Clone Wars TV show already ruined the legends Clone Wars at that point, so I would assume like you said legends would overtake the cartoon.
Edit: David Filoni has done more damage to the Star Wars Universe than anyone else so far.
Posted by: Helix345
« on: June 14, 2017, 05:41:56 PM »

I think that previous stories would override the clone wars cartoon in this case, though it is of course the teams decision.
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