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Topic Summary

Posted by: CaptainPogo
« on: October 22, 2016, 08:18:38 PM »

I really can't say the NR is to blame for the Warlords. If anything, this is on Palpatine. The structure of the overall Empire always centered around his benefit and his death in Endor has shattered this as this gave an excuse for many of these warlords to finally strike out on their own.

And again, the NR senate quickly grew to something I kinda loath as time went on for them as more and more of the heroes who made it possible would eventually phase out of being part of the politics as a whole and being replaced by people...Who are more or less a bit more self serving. The New Jedi Order books made me greatly dislike the overall leadership of the NR during the Vong Wars (though the military that do fight I still respect because they put a lot on the line to fight this new enemy) and I was slightly glad they reformed into something past this (of course, then the GA suffers its own problems but lets just not delve to that). But the early NR days were rough but they kept the good fight so I can respect that.

If anything, both Republics new and old has taught viewers...The Galaxy is wayyyyy too vast and I can imagine loads of Game of Thrones levels of deceit and manipulations going about among the Senate when things got too ugly for them.

In a sense, I can see the direction of the New Canon NR. They're sick of fighting, we get that. We've seen two galactic scale conflicts that ruins lives and changed everything for many of the participants of these conflicts for bad or good. They're also not as stupid as to completely get rid of their military might (as Leia wanted them to use) but they just don't want to be the ones to pull the trigger towards a obvious enemy that is preparing to strike them until it's too late. I can see this as a wake up call that they have to respond to this act of war but with the senate destroyed and the fleets decimated, this is gonna be a lengthy war once again.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: October 22, 2016, 04:44:24 PM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on October 22, 2016, 02:08:15 PM
ZING
But The NR is different. I'm not talking galaxy wide rebellions. I revering to civil wars between planets and systems and uprisings on some planets
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: October 22, 2016, 02:08:15 PM »

Quote from: Corey on October 22, 2016, 01:34:08 PM



Also:
Not really. We call one of those uprisings the New Republic ingame.

ZING
Posted by: Corey
« on: October 22, 2016, 01:34:08 PM »



Member worlds were always allowed to leave the New Republic, and the exchange of worlds who wished to be a member of one group or another was part of the Pellaeon-Gavrisom Treaty. A lot of the Caamas Crisis civilian violence/riots happened on the spurring of Imperial agitators, and the reason anyone was mad in the first place was the idea that the Empire had done something, with the cooperation of a member species of the New Republic. They did care about the Krytos Virus, it was just very difficult to do anything about it effectively, and when Rogue decided to go Rogue, they "conveniently lost" their resignation documents.


Also:
Quote from: AdmrialThrawn2 on October 22, 2016, 11:49:07 AM
The Empire has at least been able to put down uprisings swiftly.

Not really. We call one of those uprisings the New Republic ingame.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: October 22, 2016, 11:49:07 AM »

Let me ask you question. If NR/Rebellion is fighting against those they don't want to rule over them and the darkside.What about planets that wish to not join the NR? The NR really is just the senate form the NEW Cannon. They don't give A flying fuck about the planets who wish to not be led by the NR or their own civil wars.
In fact they barely survived the camass crisis. They are only held together by the actions of Luke, Leia, Han, and their family members. They didn't give a shit about krytos virus(Expect Rouge Squadron). Thrawn held the empire of the hand together even after his death. The NR is really just center around themselves. The Empire has at least been able to put down uprisings swiftly.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: October 22, 2016, 02:20:23 AM »

Quote from: AdmrialThrawn2 on October 21, 2016, 08:05:12 PM
Your first point is true.

Your second and third point though I have some things to say.
 Thrawn doesn't feel happy when he causes innocent people harm he only did it for the greater good. When Thrawn met outbound flight he just wanted them to leave he didn't want to kill people but the Jedi were retards. BTW Mara could of resurrected Palatine and Ca 'both was unpredictable and dangerous. Thrawn didn't want to give him Leia's children, but he was force too in order to get the resources to rebuild the empire. And Thrawn HAS shown he is a very capable leader. I would serve under a galaxy ruled by Thrawn any day over the fucking bureaucrats ruling the NR.

Now my lord here is a question.Would you rather have a galaxy run by Thrawn, the NR bureaucrats, The Emperor, or The great Terradoc brothers?
Think it over my lord
No matter what you say Thrawn is no hero and is no villain
He is a anti-Hero done and done

oh I agree Thrawn in his EARLY life regretted innocent life lost. however as he aged he displayed absolutely NO mercy or compassion to the Noghri who were on HIS side, he was willing to drop asteroids onto tens of billions of people if the NR took the chance to lower the shield. He had absolutely NO qualms about kidnapping Leia's children and giving them to C'baoth(I even fully believe he was using C'baoth as a counter in case Palpatine ever did show back up as well as the ysalamiri) his actions throughout the Thrawn trilogy are very ruthless-and remorseless. We also don't know if the species he wiped out was one of the galactic dangers or just one that wouldn't submit to the Hand and might have been seen to POSSIBLY one day pose a threat to the Chiss.

As to the question of who I would serve, I would willingly follow Pellaeon without a second thought. I would support Kaine or Thrawn as compared to the other Imperial pretenders to the Throne they were the least contemptible. I would NEVER serve the Teradoc brothers cowards both or Harrsk, megalomaniac- and while I admire Delvardus for his die hard attitude I would disdain his service as well for the utter selfishness and shortsightedness. The only Imperial Leaders post Endor worth a damn were Thrawn, Kaine, Pellaeon though I would CONSIDER supporting Zsinj.

As to the NR, yes the bureaucracy was certainly disgusting, but a lot of what the common soldier or pilot believed lines up with me. What Wedge, the Rogues, Wraiths, Bel Iblis and many of the rest fought, believed in and stood for has my utmost respect. I can only follow orders from someone I respect and far too few Imperials carry such respect, nor granted does most of the NR government but the heroes that helped build the NR those every one hold my respect almost to the level of Pellaeon.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: October 21, 2016, 08:05:12 PM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on October 21, 2016, 12:26:00 AM
2: The NR is kind of short on galaxy wide atrocities compared to Thrawn(dropping asteroids over the most populated planet in the galaxy, appropriating the entire world of Ukio solely to feed his army, the absolutely criminal exploitation of the Noghri, the extermination of that species he didn't understandart of in his unknown regions campaign...)
3: He specifically says to Mara in Dark Force Rising, "I rule the Empire now...not some long dead Emperor and certainly not you." And again when he says to Pellaeon, "We must disabuse our exalted Jedi master of this idea that he rules MY Empire." Finally his quote, "Then he lies. All men desire power. The more they have the more they want."
Thrawn is clearly a villain in the thrawn trilogy, but he is not a overly evil one like say Palpatine is. Thrawn's evil is in seeing the ends justify the means. He sees his soldiers in the trilogy as useful tools and maximizes them. His treatment of them is carefully calculated to make them more efficient and loyal to HIM. Zahn sought to lionize him in later books, which I don't mind but it does contradict the Thrawn we first met in Heir.
Your first point is true.

Your second and third point though I have some things to say.
Thrawn never wanted to wipe out species but some were actually trying to kill his people and their allies. the ones he killed were THREATS. Thrawn also got piss at kernel after he disobeyed his order and bombarded a planet. He actually wanted to negotiate with them. We are told by many that their are huge threats in the Unknown Regions that could destroy the known galaxy.
Thrawn did everything for the greater good even if he had to do evil acts. Thrawn doesn't feel happy when he causes innocent people harm he only did it for the greater good. When Thrawn met outbound flight he just wanted them to leave he didn't want to kill people but the Jedi were retards. BTW Mara could of resurrected Palatine and Ca 'both was unpredictable and dangerous. Thrawn didn't want to give him Leia's children, but he was force too in order to get the resources to rebuild the empire. And Thrawn HAS shown he is a very capable leader. I would serve under a galaxy ruled by Thrawn any day over the fucking bureaucrats ruling the NR. The NR can barely hold on most of the time. Thrawn keep in mind built a very self staining empire in the Unknown Regions. Thrawn had made peace and was very cautious about fighting some groups and only attack ones who would wage war on the Unknown Regions.

Now my lord here is a question.Would you rather have a galaxy run by Thrawn, the NR bureaucrats, The Emperor, or The great Terradoc brothers?
Think it over my lord
No matter what you say Thrawn is no hero and is no villain
He is a anti-Hero done and done
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: October 21, 2016, 02:12:41 PM »

Quote from: CaptainPogo on October 21, 2016, 09:57:17 AM


I always felt like Thrawn Trilogy Thrawn is much like the later younger portrayals of him in terms of his overall skills...Only except under Palpatine's influence to the point  Thrawn is a heck lot more ruthless and a lot more willing to discard his noble traits.



Well i meant in novels like Choices of One (1 ABY) and the add on mini novel Crisis of Faith(5 ABY) where he says things like, "We don't make war on civilians." when just four years later he does those very things in the thrawn trilogy, though as means to an end rather than mere ego salving destruction.
Posted by: CaptainPogo
« on: October 21, 2016, 09:57:17 AM »

I admit, Thrawn at the end point of his life has pretty much embraced the pure ruthlessness of the Empire. Unlike Palpatine, the man plays the leadership card a lot more carefully, as while he did see how effective Palpatine's leadership was he still is well aware of the things Palpatine does that contribute to his overall downfall. Course, he's not immune to his problems of dismissing small threats that later bit him in the ass...much like Palpatine.

I always felt like Thrawn Trilogy Thrawn is much like the later younger portrayals of him in terms of his overall skills...Only except under Palpatine's influence to the point  Thrawn is a heck lot more ruthless and a lot more willing to discard his noble traits.

I mean the Empire of the Hand is a lot more lenient and less atrocity making but it still kinda has elements of the Galactic Empire. These guys joined to make results that mattered. Parck, Fel, the Hand of Judgement, the 501st, etc know what they signed up for because it's the Empire without all the moral baggage the Empire is saddled with thanks to Palpatine's ego. But that doesn't really they're gonna play nice.

Heck, I have more respect for Pellaeon for the fact he saw Thrawn's brilliance, but is aware of how the IR needed to change if it wants to survive. And of course, stayed the hell away from dark side crap once he got the reins of leadership unlike Thrawn (who does learn the lesson that keeping that sort of power around is a bad idea but damn). Because results or not in a pretty grim situation , the dark side always has that taint that ruins people in the overall long run.
Posted by: Pali
« on: October 21, 2016, 08:35:00 AM »

It is worth noting that the Thrawn we meet in Outbound Flight is considerably younger than he was in the Thrawn trilogy, and had not yet been exiled from his people (likely to harden anyone's disposition) nor had he yet joined the Empire - and joining any society for an extended period is going to affect someone's sense of morality.  I didn't see the nicer Thrawn as inconsistent characterization, I saw it as the younger, more idealistic version of the hard man he became.  It is also worth noting that while the Empire of the Hand seemed to not suffer the Galactic Empire's xenophobia, it was still never portrayed as anything other than a military dictatorship - it was simply one with fairly enlightened dictators in Thrawn and Parck.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: October 21, 2016, 12:26:00 AM »

Quote from: AdmrialThrawn2 on October 20, 2016, 03:58:51 PM
But Thrawn still isn't a bad guy
1: They Caused the warlords to form.
2: They have done horrible things as well.
3: They put the galaxy in danger by destroying the Empire. They would of stop the Vong before they took over most territory
Thrawn is more of a anti-hero then a good or bad guy. He made do terrible things, but for the better of the galaxy. You don't hear him say in the books "I will rule the galaxy" he says "We will rule the galaxy" implying he never wanted to rule but to restore order.
1: There is evidence that several Imperials were considering going rogue to seize power, but were just held in check by fear of Palpatine, many Darksiders wanted to supplant him too.(Jerec for starters) so assuming the Empire would have remained stable is somewhat in doubt. Finally on the Vong, no one knew about them so what they did in ignorance is somewhat excusable.
2: The NR is kind of short on galaxy wide atrocities compared to Thrawn(dropping asteroids over the most populated planet in the galaxy, appropriating the entire world of Ukio solely to feed his army, the absolutely criminal exploitation of the Noghri, the extermination of that species he didn't understandart of in his unknown regions campaign...)
3: He specifically says to Mara in Dark Force Rising, "I rule the Empire now...not some long dead Emperor and certainly not you." And again when he says to Pellaeon, "We must disabuse our exalted Jedi master of this idea that he rules MY Empire." Finally his quote, "Then he lies. All men desire power. The more they have the more they want."
Thrawn is clearly a villain in the thrawn trilogy, but he is not a overly evil one like say Palpatine is. Thrawn's evil is in seeing the ends justify the means. He sees his soldiers in the trilogy as useful tools and maximizes them. His treatment of them is carefully calculated to make them more efficient and loyal to HIM. Zahn sought to lionize him in later books, which I don't mind but it does contradict the Thrawn we first met in Heir.
Posted by: CaptainPogo
« on: October 20, 2016, 05:35:44 PM »

Very nice choices.

I admit while growing up, one of the earliest Star Wars comic (and first exposure to the EU) I got to read was Crimson Empire. There was when I saw Kir Kanos, the last Royal Guardsman under Palpatine's rule.

And he is one of my favorite Imperials before I got to check the EU. Because the comics depict the guy as a rather heroic figure when it does and his backstory invokes a good amount of sympathy (his training, how he became the last guardsman, etc). The only thing was...When Crimson Empire started, he's a full blown loyalist to Palpatine.

It's not like Pellaeon and a good several Imperials who do believe in keeping order in the galaxy (and they are loyal to the Empire's goals, not exactly to Palpatine himself...And for sure not into Sith related messes that the Empire tends to skirt the line from when Palpatine is at the helm) and can move past Palpatine's rule. Kanos however doesn't really care about the Imperial Remnant or their attempts to hold on to whatever power they got left after Dark Empire, nor does he care about the Warlords.

All this guy cares about is slaying the traitors who made sure Palpatine stayed dead before the heroes landed the finishing blow. Granted, overtime does he admit that Palpatine is evil and that the Empire of old that he served isn't exactly noble but my god does he cling to his goals to avenging this Sith Lord no matter what.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: October 20, 2016, 03:58:51 PM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on October 20, 2016, 08:54:24 AM
I like him, but he's not in my favorites because as a CHARACTER he's not too fascinating. Plus Zahn began to rewrite him over time as more noble and good oriented that contrasts sharply with his persona in the Thrawn trilogy where he ruthlessly exploits the Noghri-and even seems to be amused by doing so,uses terror on civilians, and repeatedly goes back on his word to Mara.

I found him like evil Sherlock, interesting for his abilities but not overly so as a developed character. His Watson -Pellaeon is far more relatable and developed by contrast which is why I find him the more compelling character.
But Thrawn still isn't a bad guy in the Thrawn Trilogy. Sure He executed a incompetent commander, but he cares for his men and isn't hungry for power. His motives are not for power but to restore order. LOOK at the actions of the NR
1: They Caused the warlords to form.
2: They have done horrible things as well.
3: They put the galaxy in danger by destroying the Empire. They would of stop the Vong before they took over most territory
Thrawn is more of a anti-hero then a good or bad guy. He made do terrible things, but for the better of the galaxy. You don't hear him say in the books "I will rule the galaxy" he says "We will rule the galaxy" implying he never wanted to rule but to restore order.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: October 20, 2016, 08:54:24 AM »

Quote from: AdmrialThrawn2 on October 19, 2016, 08:02:34 PM
My... lord you don't like Thrawn? ;(
I like him, but he's not in my favorites because as a CHARACTER he's not too fascinating. Plus Zahn began to rewrite him over time as more noble and good oriented that contrasts sharply with his persona in the Thrawn trilogy where he ruthlessly exploits the Noghri-and even seems to be amused by doing so,uses terror on civilians, and repeatedly goes back on his word to Mara.

I found him like evil Sherlock, interesting for his abilities but not overly so as a developed character. His Watson -Pellaeon is far more relatable and developed by contrast which is why I find him the more compelling character.

Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: October 19, 2016, 08:02:34 PM »

My... lord you don't like Thrawn? ;(
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