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Posted by: CaptainPogo
« on: May 13, 2014, 03:56:29 PM »

Actually, now that I really think about it, Vader's portrayals in the OT films (and going on films only) kind of made sense.

ANH: As Admiral Motti established (in the most dumbest sense that nearly got him killed), not too many people are keen of Vader looming around and even questions his ability as a military commander and if the force is truly that powerful. At that time, Palpatine and Vader literally had no real threats that warrants their utmost abilities and as a result became kind of lax since this rebellion wasn't really that threatening to their status in the Empire. It shows as Vader fought Old Ben and...Well, it makes the impression that these two men have never fought a serious duel in years, Vader getting the edge since he at least was still an active combatant...Just not one who fought a serious threat. Prequels now adds the fact that Vader was taking this in a very caution manner, after all, his inability to keep his emotional state in check at Mustafar was the reason he was crippled.

ESB: Now that the Rebellion has sparked to something much more thanks to the Death Star (blowing up a planet that has done nothing to the Empire as well as its own destruction from an unlikely person can do that I guess), Vader is perhaps placed in constant combat with his elite troops and given the best equipment in his fleet. This and his sudden intrigued over Luke has really made Vader up his game as a serious fighter now. His Duel in Bespin is a vast improvement over his duel against Ben, doing all but outright killing Luke as he destroys the young Jedi without even trying. His use in the force has gone from choking a guy with his mind in the same room to that of the same move...While in another ship (also, blocking blaster shots with his hand and that whole hurling objects without lifting a finger deal).

ROTJ: Basically said to be him at his absolute best. Not much to be said actually since Luke has improved vastly as more or less Vader's equal as a duelist (which given Luke's absurdly small training span...That's more a feat for him than for Vader lol), revealed his saber throw skills, and able to find out about Leia being his own daughter by probing Luke's thoughts. And while he died from tanking Palpatine's lightning, the fact he wasn't dead on the spot after his life support being fried all to Hell is sorta impressive...Again, sorta.

So yeah, OT Vader to me started rather threatening but mostly seen as an attack dog for the Empire's higher-ups not using his full potential to a living nightmare for all who opposed him once he got off his ass and went back to the mode he was when killing off the Jedi Order.

Now with the EU and prequels in hand...Yeah, it makes him out to be a monster fighter who lost a lot of potential to be more but nevertheless a monster fighter still.

Posted by: Dark_Ansem
« on: May 13, 2014, 12:02:12 PM »

Kinda agree. I'd have loved to see the full potential of the Dark Lord...
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: May 13, 2014, 10:26:24 AM »

I feel like it has more to do with reader and viewer perception changing. Vader is one of the strongest mentioned in EU and seen in old trio. He is sent on high profile missions and has command of elite units. His force powers were shown as second only to the Emperor's own until Luke and Yoda
Posted by: Carnivore Jacques
« on: May 12, 2014, 08:50:13 PM »

I agree. The crippled and dead are as able to manipulate the force as the healthy. Beyond that, Vader no longer suffers for his lack of experience, and the Emperor no doubt taught him some force techniques (it's the reason he fell in the first place). There should be no reason why he would be weaker than he is in the prequel trilogy and expanded universe.

However, he is. He's awful sluggish in the movies. He's not respected by his coworkers and superiors, and his deployment doesn't reflect his reputation as one of the most powerful people in the galaxy.

It kind of makes me think that he was originally intended to be a crippled old cyborg. He became so famous and iconic, however, that writers decided to write him doing grander and grander things, much in the same way that EU authors tried to top each others' superweapons. The result is that he is the most important person in the galaxy at the time of the prequel trilogy, then the most powerful at the time of the original trilogy, except in the movies themselves, wherein he is clearly not.
Posted by: CaptainPogo
« on: May 08, 2014, 03:36:22 PM »

Maybe not the right title but this is something on my mind for a while.

Warning...this is so rant and walls of text, this may turn off many. XD

In the Original Trilogy, Darth Vader was a great villain with a tragic past. He was a large threat to an entire Rebellion and was famed for slaughtering his former Jedi comrades. As time went on in the films, his amazing power was seen in shock and awe (choking men to death with the force from great distances, his skills with a saber are near unmatched, throwing objects at people with his mind, blocking blaster bolts with a hand, etc). All in all...He was a badass.

But ever since the prequels and the material that follows...I seem to have seen one too many debates with Vader that now saddles him with a severe decay, most notable being "Vader in the OT is nothing more than a crippled old cyborg who can barely beat an untrained Jedi and an old man."

I for one...Think that is total BS.

Yes, Revenge of the Sith made it clear that Anakin Skywalker's fatal injuries has completely lowered his force potential as the Chosen One and that as Vader, he will never see his true potential. His cybernetics indeed made him more machine than man and has hampered his once agile movements in saber combat. But seriously...Have people forgotten what this man has done in the OT that makes his prequel self look tame in comparison?

Movie-Wise, Anakin is indeed a faster fighter and at RoTS is perhaps the greatest master of the Djem So lightsaber style who is only flawed by arrogance and usage of force techniques at its most basic, though very strong in using them. Vader is not as fast, but has spent years on improving his Djem So, especially given his condition. His greatest change is his lack in arrogance (being burnt to a crisp can do that to ya) and thinks rather tactically compared to how his former self usually resorts in combat as well as his somewhat broader sense of using the force. Vader may never fight like Anakin ever again but he did improve his fighting form to great levels.

EU-Wise? Anakin when pulling off something outside his usual MO, is damn impressive and worthy of being the Chosen One. Using a force scream to collapse an entire building, able to react to sub-light movements in a starfighter while even the most skilled non-force sensitive pilots deemed such reactions damn near impossible, and defeating Dooku who was once known as one of the greatest knights in the Order? No doubt bout it, despite his issues, Anakin is no small potatoes as a force user. As for Vader, he honed these powers again to broader yet brutal uses in a usually basis during combat. His speed, despite not as fast, are ridiculous when he is let loose (able to kill a man so fast that the latter's Jedi bud didn't even realize it despite both being in the same room, faster than the human eye can perceive in heated combat), able to kill groups of Jedi and fighting off the best of them in heated duels (the Dark Woman, Roan Shryne), just won't die under extreme conditions, and actually being well versed in Sith force abilities (sure Palpatine isn't too happy about Vader's loss of potential but he was still the best out there). So yeah, while again Vader will never reach his potential...He was still a monster warrior.

And while Luke and Old Ben weren't too impressive to the eyes...Consider the fact that Luke despite limited experience was considered a major threat that Palpatine at first wanted to kill. That this guy completed his training and earned his knighthood in a very short time span when most Jedi don't attain this rank that fast despite their years of training. That experienced Jedi such as Old Ben and Yoda were backing up on as their sole hope (or Leia but whateves) against the Sith they couldn't beat...Yeah, it kind of speaks a lot for Luke. EU-Material on this timeline only does make him out to be a growing warrior who gets better and better. And lets not talk about what he eventually became when he reaches as Grand Master. Old Ben may have severely diminished his dueling abilities but he was still an accomplished Jedi Master. While Vader couldn't get past his Soresu form...Ben has a near nonexistent offense to capitalize, further hindered that Vader was no longer fighting like an angry emotional Jackass. While Old Ben wasn't the warrior he was, he was still a tough old man in a duel.

So all in all...Can we really say Vader sucked compared to his younger, less injured as Hell, self? I just don't think so. This is a man who had to rebuilt his entire fighting style as well as his abilities and it paid off immensely. While he will no longer find the potential he was meant to reach, he sure as Hell didn't spent years crying over it.

....Yeah, you guys can shoot me down for this but it's just my opinion. XD

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