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Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: October 10, 2013, 03:18:11 PM »

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Quote from: revanchist on October 09, 2013, 11:02:18 PM

Just a point about the ages: remember that the people in the Star Wars universe are NOT humans the same as earth humans. For all we know they age differently than what we imagine to be "normal." And while I agree with the Jacen Solo aspect of the Legacy, I didn't think that it was on a whole an overused plot. As for FotJ, I will withhold my judgement for the moment, I will wait to see what happens in the next books before I make my judgement.

Granted, however according to Luke, Palpatine and a few other quotes from various books Human's normally don't live to 90 to 100 apparently. So that would put them somewhat within the range of our norm for aging.(Granted exceptions to the rule always exist)

Posted by: Revanchist

« on: October 09, 2013, 11:02:18 PM »

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Just a point about the ages: remember that the people in the Star Wars universe are NOT humans the same as earth humans. For all we know they age differently than what we imagine to be "normal." And while I agree with the Jacen Solo aspect of the Legacy, I didn't think that it was on a whole an overused plot. As for FotJ, I will withhold my judgement for the moment, I will wait to see what happens in the next books before I make my judgement.

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: October 09, 2013, 10:11:21 PM »

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Quote from: Singularity on October 09, 2013, 06:03:13 PM

But then, everything changed when the Troy Denning attacked...

NoooooooOOOOOO!!!

Also as to the Yuuzhan Vong War's ening being the biggest Duex ex Machina, I think that title actually goes to the defeat of the Dark Empire.

Posted by: Singularity

« on: October 09, 2013, 06:03:13 PM »

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Quote from: Lord Xizer on June 25, 2013, 04:41:00 PM

and all lived happily ever after

But then, everything changed when the Troy Denning attacked...

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: October 09, 2013, 03:04:46 PM »

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Quote from: JC123 on June 29, 2013, 08:58:45 AM

Yes, the reaction to the Red Wedding is a great example. "Don't screw with my perception of your fantasy! Ah, It's ruined!"

Oddly enough I LIKE that about GoT, keeps you guessing. The problem I have with the SW version is that you have characters who like Pellaeon, Bel Iblis and others are unbelievably still on front lines! It's like in the 25 odd years after Endor you have 4 major figureheads(Outside the main heroes) and no one else raises up. I mean Pellaeon was in his 90s in the VONG WAR! Bel Iblis was supposed to be as old or older than him! It's ludicrous to believe they'd be on front lines fully cognizant as they were in their first appearances. Also yes the fact that for so long they were involved it kind of feels rushed and pointless to just 'kill them off' when you could easily just have retired them in the practical sense.

I'll agree with Corey that a lot of the EU is poorly written(The Jedi Academy series, the Young Jedi Knights, and the god awful Crystal Star to name but a few) Many didn't have the knowledge of what we have today of SW and were shooting blind, also held back by constraints of Lucas too(though often that was a GOOD thing) My main problem is that I hate that "I've been here 1,000 times already" feel about a book. And the Legacy series as well as FotJ series just felt like that and forced too.

Posted by: JC123

« on: June 29, 2013, 08:58:45 AM »

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Quote from: Corey on June 28, 2013, 10:28:52 PM

The Hand of Thrawn Duology is better than anything between Endor and itself, including the Thrawn Trilogy. While well-written, the TT had some terrible characters including Thrawn himself, the OBF version of whom was much more believable. Seriously, that scene where he figured out exactly who and what went each way to and from the Millenium Falcon? Everything he did was some bullshit magical ability that made no sense and wasn't justified within the universe. It's one thing to have a superpower justified within an internally consistent universe (the Force, magic in HP) but with Thrawn it's just these asinine abilities which came from how brilliant he was even though there's no logical connection there. You seriously expect me to believe somebody could study the Mona Lisa or even a five year old's macaroni picture and use it to figure out how to destroy humanity? Maybe, if we all die from trying to eat the macaroni with glue on it. Otherwise, no. Just no. The Vong series was the first one that included actual conflict that wasn't just black and white New Republic sew kewl versus Remnant in some sort of indirect American patriotic circlejerk, even if its resolution was the biggest Deus Ex Machina I've ever seen.

Also, as far as any of the series' after NJO, Jacen Solo probably has the best character arc of anyone in the series even if he was really annoying and whiny half the time.

The problems people have with stuff that gets increasingly farther post-Endor tends to only be disliked because it's killing off the "favourite characters" introduced earlier. Honestly, Xizer's point about everything after the Vong War being fanfiction works better in the opposite direction. People got REALLY upset that characters like Chewbacca, Mara and Pellaeon who had been around for so long were killed of and because of that they start to write off the later stuff as "not real Star Wars." If you actually look at the books for their merit, the newer stuff tends to be better written and more original, but it's no longer the same stories where the good guys are the good guys and then everyone fights the Big Bad of the Week, redeems or kills them and then everyone's happy. This doesn't mean they're necessarily good, but they're certainly not worse; in my opinion the entirety of Star Wars is riddled with cliches anyways.

The closest thing I can relate it to is how upset people got over the Red Wedding with Game of Thrones. Kill off a popular character and people get mad.

Yes, the reaction to the Red Wedding is a great example. "Don't screw with my perception of your fantasy! Ah, It's ruined!"

Posted by: yutpaeksi

« on: June 29, 2013, 03:15:22 AM »

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The Yuuzhang Vong chapter was okay, but I have to disagree with you. There was too much grey, not enough black and white. I think stories like Star Wars are held up as ideals for most people, a chance to see what an idealistic character, a true hero, would do in situations in which we, as fault-riddled human beings, know we would opt for the "grey" route.

Regarding Jacen Solo, I thought some parts were okay but my real gripe was that it was schizophrenic. Some authors wrote it TOO close to the fall of Anakin Skywalker. Others made him seem logical and calculating and put real weight behind his descent. But it just wasn't consistent enough. Also, I think that if Anakin Solo had never been killed (a poor decision that many of the Star Wars authors disagreed with), and kept as the primary hero of the Yuuzhan Vong war, instead of Jacen, I would have bought the Darth Caedus storyline better. The way it was done though, they completely undid a hero built up from that chapter of the EU.

Anakin Solo is the one death I am truly angry about. Mary Jade's was actually handled very very well in my opinion, and served a real purpose in terms of plot. It tore Luke out of inaction, and made Ben Skywalker a very interesting character.

Posted by: Revanchist

« on: June 29, 2013, 12:39:19 AM »

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I completely agree with you Corey, most people cannot accept the fact that not everyone lives happily ever after. However, his all comes down to the basic truth that "all true Star Wars fans deep down inside hate Star Wars." No one will enjoy everything in Star Wars, we all have our pet peeves.

Posted by: Corey

« on: June 28, 2013, 10:28:52 PM »

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The Hand of Thrawn Duology is better than anything between Endor and itself, including the Thrawn Trilogy. While well-written, the TT had some terrible characters including Thrawn himself, the OBF version of whom was much more believable. Seriously, that scene where he figured out exactly who and what went each way to and from the Millenium Falcon? Everything he did was some bullshit magical ability that made no sense and wasn't justified within the universe. It's one thing to have a superpower justified within an internally consistent universe (the Force, magic in HP) but with Thrawn it's just these asinine abilities which came from how brilliant he was even though there's no logical connection there. You seriously expect me to believe somebody could study the Mona Lisa or even a five year old's macaroni picture and use it to figure out how to destroy humanity? Maybe, if we all die from trying to eat the macaroni with glue on it. Otherwise, no. Just no. The Vong series was the first one that included actual conflict that wasn't just black and white New Republic sew kewl versus Remnant in some sort of indirect American patriotic circlejerk, even if its resolution was the biggest Deus Ex Machina I've ever seen.

Also, as far as any of the series' after NJO, Jacen Solo probably has the best character arc of anyone in the series even if he was really annoying and whiny half the time.

The problems people have with stuff that gets increasingly farther post-Endor tends to only be disliked because it's killing off the "favourite characters" introduced earlier. Honestly, Xizer's point about everything after the Vong War being fanfiction works better in the opposite direction. People got REALLY upset that characters like Chewbacca, Mara and Pellaeon who had been around for so long were killed of and because of that they start to write off the later stuff as "not real Star Wars." If you actually look at the books for their merit, the newer stuff tends to be better written and more original, but it's no longer the same stories where the good guys are the good guys and then everyone fights the Big Bad of the Week, redeems or kills them and then everyone's happy. This doesn't mean they're necessarily good, but they're certainly not worse; in my opinion the entirety of Star Wars is riddled with cliches anyways.

The closest thing I can relate it to is how upset people got over the Red Wedding with Game of Thrones. Kill off a popular character and people get mad.

Posted by: JC123

« on: June 28, 2013, 06:20:28 PM »

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Quote from: Lord Xizer on June 28, 2013, 06:05:12 PM

I was mentioning what I hoped would happen. Honestly though the Vong war was the ultimate crisis and the Dark Side had it's time in the films and prequels. All characters developed to their optimum state by the end of the Vong war and let's face it the post NJO was just a crappier version of the prequels.

It's the typical problem with popular story lines and characters. They see way too much crap because it's not profitable to let them retire and they end up living lives that would just be tiring and traumatic. If a story line is sufficiently well written, it would be best for (the fans) if certain characters were retired (like a jersey number). It's all downhill from there. I can't think of a single practical situation where someone would end a story arc simply because the last one went so well, so this idea won't happen.

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: June 28, 2013, 06:05:12 PM »

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Quote from: SettraTheImperishable on June 27, 2013, 10:27:55 PM

As he said, he disregards all that as fanfiction. (though for what it is worth you are correct on Pellaeon and Mara dying)

I was mentioning what I hoped would happen. Honestly though the Vong war was the ultimate crisis and the Dark Side had it's time in the films and prequels. All characters developed to their optimum state by the end of the Vong war and let's face it the post NJO was just a crappier version of the prequels.

Posted by: Waffle Wagon

« on: June 27, 2013, 11:24:06 PM »

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I've always treated post-NJO stuff the same way. In my opinion, The Hand of Thrawn duology would have made a good ending note, but then they decided to do the Vong invasion. Which was okay, and probably a good place to stop. But they couldn't stop there, and so we got the swarm wars and all sots of nonsense including Traviss's completely unnecessary civil war.

Posted by: Settra

« on: June 27, 2013, 10:27:55 PM »

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Quote from: Crisiss on June 27, 2013, 09:37:29 PM

Didn't Pellaeon die over Fondor? And I'm fairly sure Mara died. Not sure what you mean by Fett pussying out.

As he said, he disregards all that as fanfiction. (though for what it is worth you are correct on Pellaeon and Mara dying)

Posted by: Crisiss

« on: June 27, 2013, 09:37:29 PM »

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Quote from: Lord Xizer on June 27, 2013, 08:23:29 PM

It is the truth! I disregard all after the end of that War as fan fiction! Poorly written at that. Pellaeon died in retirement on Bastion, Mara lived, and Boba Fett doesn't puss out of killing people. Enough said.

Didn't Pellaeon die over Fondor? And I'm fairly sure Mara died. Not sure what you mean by Fett pussying out.

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: June 27, 2013, 08:23:29 PM »

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Quote from: Rovert10 on June 25, 2013, 05:26:25 PM

If only that was the truth.

It is the truth! I disregard all after the end of that War as fan fiction! Poorly written at that. Pellaeon died in retirement on Bastion, Mara lived, and Boba Fett doesn't puss out of killing people. Enough said.