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Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: August 11, 2013, 06:00:23 AM »

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Quote from: Thuellai on August 11, 2013, 01:22:09 AM

I think the real mistake across that campaign was Kaine's failure to commit the Pentastar's resources entirely to Thrawn's campaign. With the financial power and resources of the Pentastar, Thrawn may have been able to push the New Republic into an untenable position. Of course, it would have ended the same way it always does... a Republican plot device.

All too true. The Empire's greatest weakness was how Palpatine structured it(Which granted EVERY dictator does this to a degree) by pitting his servants against one another for HIS favor and not ever intending to have another hold power(since he intended to live forever) He is solely responsible for the outbreaks of Warlordism that swept the Empire. Factions were always wary or hostile to each other because only ONE could sit the throne and nobody who created their own fiefdoms wanted to go back to being second fiddle to someone else. Kaine was humanocentric and anti alien as well as ruling the PA so when Thrawn shows up and Kaine's forces rally to HIM that was a threat to Kaine's power. He gave Thrawn cooperation grudgingly but wanted him to fail so that once again Kaine would be the Empire's hope(solely in the New Territories as Kaine had no intentions of going back to the Core.)
While Kaine was a brilliant Grand Moff(evidenced by his ability to govern the PA so effectively for so long) a genius military strategist(as proven by his dozen victories in his drive to the Core over the NR forces shortly before Shadow Hand) he did not want to share or give power. He was not a very good judge of other people's wishes as a result.(I.E. thinking that many would rally behind him and establish a New Empire in the New Territories and forsake the rest of the Galaxy) In this same way he could not be persuaded to back any attempt to retake that Galaxy he'd abandoned for his new vision, certainly not by an Alien. He would only leave the Alignment and commit it's full might if absolutely forced...which the Reborn Emperor did.

Posted by: Thuellai

« on: August 11, 2013, 01:22:09 AM »

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Thrawn was very intelligent but made mistakes from time to time in the Thrawn trilogy - he DID underestimate Luke, despite his best efforts to prepare for a Jedi. He DID misjudge the Noghri, Leia, and Mara. Even in battles he wasn't always successful - his Sullustan attack was incomplete and he was forced to concede there, and indeed they were even able to work out his original plan to a degree, so he wasn't impossibly beyond the other characters - he was just smart, ruthless, and opportunistic.

He does, however, get overplayed as something of an omniscient, Always Right boogieman in later books... which I think the Hand sort of poked fun at, with them pointing out that the New Republic seems as scared of his reputation as his actual accomplishments and that, really, a clone of Thrawn would just be another gifted Chiss who miiight decide to go into tactics but would have to learn and develop on his own.

I think the real mistake across that campaign was Kaine's failure to commit the Pentastar's resources entirely to Thrawn's campaign. With the financial power and resources of the Pentastar, Thrawn may have been able to push the New Republic into an untenable position. Of course, it would have ended the same way it always does... a Republican plot device.

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: July 03, 2013, 05:50:47 PM »

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I feel though that he definitely evolved to sometimes seeming omniscience from genius in the Thrawn triology. When you read Outbound Flight, Crisis of Faith and Choices of One he seems almost all knowing in his foresight. Don't get me wrong he still messes up, but increasingly less. I mean in TIE fighter Zaarin almost bests him a few times, in the Trio he overlooks the Noghri, misreads a few opponents intentions and such(granted he WAS running a LOT more assets and enemies than normal so it's possible to overlook things easier)

Posted by: Corey

« on: July 03, 2013, 02:04:37 PM »

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Quote from: Senza on July 03, 2013, 10:57:27 AM

but then again we're talking about a universe where people can move planets with their minds

There's a distinction between having different rules with internal consistency, and random plot-progressing bullshit. It's one thing to say Harry Potter can use magic, here's the rules of magic, here's what Harry does and doesn't know how to do, and if he does something new and unexpected it's something that will actually be explained later (priori incantatum).

With Thrawn it's just "dude's really smart so he's going to use logic to figure things out" when there's nothing logical about what he actually figures out, and when what he's proposing to infer doesn't actually follow from the information available (figuring out who was on what ship based on how long it took to switch). It's like if someone's established as a smart character by saying "this guy's a smart character" and then we just have to accept that 2+2=5 because he's a smart character and who are we to question his methods?

Posted by: Senza

« on: July 03, 2013, 10:57:27 AM »

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There were a couple things I thought were a little over the top, and his abilities do stretch belief a little bit, but then again we're talking about a universe where people can move planets with their minds, and of course the most unbelievable of all, any government being able to sustain Coruscant without it somehow going bankrupt.

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: June 30, 2013, 11:15:14 PM »

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Quote from: Joseon194 on June 29, 2013, 09:09:13 PM

I've been rereading the thrawn trilogy and after almost a year and a half after reading Dark Force Rising. I finally read The Last Command (couldn't find it in any bookstore for some reason) and i have come to the conclusion that ... Thrawn is as OP as a villain like the super star Destroyers in the mod. He is as omniscient as the air around you. I understand a tacticians intuition but what the FU... FORCE?! "Look at this painting... OK time to defeat the enemy" Do not get me wrong, I LOVE Thrawn. He is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe and he doesn't shoot lightning and swing lightsabers. Hes an ordinary Admiral who led an almost impossibly genius campaign against the New Republic but the way Timothy Zahn had his military foresight work almost made me guffaw more than once.

I remember hearing that he is supposed to be a composite of many famous generals and even our beloved detective Sherlock Holmes but seriously? Getting a military battle plan from reading a couple of squiggly lines? Seriously? If they took that part of his character out his art of war would've been more believable but only a little bit.

My feelings and opinions of Thrawn are of admiration and slight "what the hell"- ness? I admire him because of the fact that he reminds me of a handful of commanders from our world who have beaten back the enemy through superior tactics instead of numbers and sheer force. Naval commanders like Admiral Yi Soon Shin of Joseon Korea and Admiral Nelson of the Royal Navy and even Admiral Drake at Gravelines. But even those commanders who won stunning victories against their enemies time and time again did not EVER used a painting to beat their enemies.

I don't think he's over powered. He makes mistakes(a few of which were VERY critical) His tactics were based on his study of War. The art gave him insight into a culture's psychological blind spots(which art can do, I myself study art and can pick up on hints of the artists' personality and intentions in it) He then developed strategies that capitalized on such weaknesses. For instance, species in question is weak to surprise, tailors attack on surprise. It's like a psychologist meets a tactical genius.
He mistook intentions of the Noghri, Leia and Mara which all contributed to his defeat. He overlooked a few critical details because he was too much of a micro manager, this also in some ways hurt his command as with the exception of Pellaeon he didn't take the time to enlighten his officers of his plans(which would have allowed the Empire to successfully create new strategies and learn from mistakes. Instead he kept almost all at arms length and absolute need to know. Thrawn had many weaknesses, trust, micromanagement, and to a degree pride.
To me he seems quite realistic and not OPed as a villain...Reborn Palps on the other hand....

Posted by: Revanchist

« on: June 30, 2013, 11:49:19 AM »

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Quote from: Waffle Wagon on June 30, 2013, 12:22:05 AM

Still there's only so much information you can gain from looking at a vase or sculpture. I mean, what could analysis of The Scream possibly tell anyone about how to defeat the Norwegian army? Seeing what a culture values most can be a starting point for deducing their weaknesses, but Thrawn carried that to whole new levels... one might say ridiculous levels.

One must also remember that art in Star Wars is often 3D (holograms) and is animated (The art show in Episode III comes to mind). Only primitive or ancient art is average paintings and sculptures. And while he only showcased a few pieces of art, he most likely had entire collections of said species art to study. As you said, looking only at The Scream could not tell you about Norwegian army, studying all paintings ever painted by Norwegians might give you more info. This is not to say that Thrawn wasn't too good, but also remember that he is an alien and he thinks differently than humans do.

Posted by: Waffle Wagon

« on: June 30, 2013, 12:22:05 AM »

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Still there's only so much information you can gain from looking at a vase or sculpture. I mean, what could analysis of The Scream possibly tell anyone about how to defeat the Norwegian army? Seeing what a culture values most can be a starting point for deducing their weaknesses, but Thrawn carried that to whole new levels... one might say ridiculous levels.

Posted by: Revanchist

« on: June 29, 2013, 10:35:33 PM »

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The way I see it, artists and military commanders both share one thing in common?they must be creative to succeed. When you look at it that way, studying art is not much different than studying the tactics of an army. It allows you to see what their culture values, what they believe is important for success, and what things they view as either unimportant or haven't even considered at all.

Posted by: Joseon194

« on: June 29, 2013, 09:09:13 PM »

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I've been rereading the thrawn trilogy and after almost a year and a half after reading Dark Force Rising. I finally read The Last Command (couldn't find it in any bookstore for some reason) and i have come to the conclusion that ... Thrawn is as OP as a villain like the super star Destroyers in the mod. He is as omniscient as the air around you. I understand a tacticians intuition but what the FU... FORCE?! "Look at this painting... OK time to defeat the enemy" Do not get me wrong, I LOVE Thrawn. He is one of my favorite characters in the Star Wars universe and he doesn't shoot lightning and swing lightsabers. Hes an ordinary Admiral who led an almost impossibly genius campaign against the New Republic but the way Timothy Zahn had his military foresight work almost made me guffaw more than once.

I remember hearing that he is supposed to be a composite of many famous generals and even our beloved detective Sherlock Holmes but seriously? Getting a military battle plan from reading a couple of squiggly lines? Seriously? If they took that part of his character out his art of war would've been more believable but only a little bit.

My feelings and opinions of Thrawn are of admiration and slight "what the hell"- ness? I admire him because of the fact that he reminds me of a handful of commanders from our world who have beaten back the enemy through superior tactics instead of numbers and sheer force. Naval commanders like Admiral Yi Soon Shin of Joseon Korea and Admiral Nelson of the Royal Navy and even Admiral Drake at Gravelines. But even those commanders who won stunning victories against their enemies time and time again did not EVER used a painting to beat their enemies.