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Posted by: Pali

« on: January 29, 2018, 06:10:01 PM »

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Quote from: Lord Xizer on January 29, 2018, 12:45:08 PM

The same forces that pushed these genera to deaths door are being reflected directly in the superhero genera and Disney is planning MULTIPLE film releases PER year of SW. TFA didn't do great because it was a superior film, it did so because of nostalgia, not having direct competition and a decad break in SW. While TLJ got many views it received a 49% rating because unlike TFA it didn't have the gap. And that is now, wait til we have 3 or more films a year. SW will cease being a phenomenon and become mundane mass produced normalcy until it dies from lack of profit.

I agree that oversaturation is a danger - I simply don't think it is an inevitable one. I don't see any credible reports that Disney is planning to start putting out multiple Star Wars films per year, so I'm going to need a source on that claim, and without multiple movies per year oversaturation is a lot less likely to become a problem.

Posted by: Illidan Stormrage

« on: January 29, 2018, 04:55:19 PM »

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Quote from: Mr.Puerto on January 29, 2018, 03:47:00 PM

If you look at the reviews it’s almost obvious that bots where used to give TLJ bad reviews so there’s no way to solve it and make sure it was accurate

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on January 28, 2018, 09:59:39 AM

Can i point out that reports are reports. Your complain Xizer is using something that stats that are not "completely accurate" and then you use something that is not completely true. As someone who knows how rotten tomatoes works they have a system in place to both detect bots, and troll posts. So no, you are incorrect, but i will see at least maybe 1-5% of the reviews could be trolls. However that is not enough to lower the films audience score that low, so yes acutal people that are not s posted legit reviews that gave it a low score.

As for TFA this is a simple reason. If was given the benefit of the doubt, people say okay that's cool and they get a chance and most like it(I did not because the more i watched it the more it bother me, compare to TLJ which i liked even more every time i see it) So yeah the reviews are 100% accurate but they represent alot of perple

Rotten Tomato has counter measures to both bots and trolls Mr.Puerto. It always has. And while i will agree some can split through the cracks you have to understand people have legitment critiisms and those are weighted in. After i personally took the time reading throught about 100 reviews out of all of them, three came off as suspioucs, but that does not mean they are bots. Again reports are reports and since all we hvae is claims then we have nothing. As far as we can tell those reviews are pretty much the real deal. And at the same time this film did have reasons not to like it(I personally enjoyed it). I think people just need to accept that is a almost accurate score(I like to asume its about 1-3% off the real score.).
So while the Rotten Tomato score is 48% now i think it is mostly in reality in between a 49-54% if we assume some "Groups" or bots slipped through the cracks (this is coming from someone who enjoyed the movie.)

Posted by: Mr.Puerto

« on: January 29, 2018, 03:47:00 PM »

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Quote from: Admiral Stephen on January 28, 2018, 09:09:30 PM

I've read those same reports, but there's no way that score isn't at least somewhat reflective of what the audience thinks. I wasn't the biggest fan of either TFA or TLJ (I did like Rouge One), but I was one of those who did think TLJ could have been waaayyy better than it turned out to be. I feel Disney missed a huge opportunity with TLJ. I think there are fans out there that were hoping for way more from TLJ after TFA left so much unanswered, and their reviews are reflecting that.

If you look at the reviews it’s almost obvious that bots where used to give TLJ bad reviews so there’s no way to solve it and make sure it was accurate

Posted by: Slornie

« on: January 29, 2018, 01:44:55 PM »

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Quote from: Lord Xizer on January 29, 2018, 12:45:08 PM

The same forces that pushed these genera to deaths door are being reflected directly in the superhero genera and Disney is planning MULTIPLE film releases PER year of SW. TFA didn't do great because it was a superior film, it did so because of nostalgia, not having direct competition and a decad break in SW. While TLJ got many views it received a 49% rating because unlike TFA it didn't have the gap. And that is now, wait til we have 3 or more films a year. SW will cease being a phenomenon and become mundane mass produced normalcy until it dies from lack of profit.

Disney will have to really ramp up production if they're going to manage multiple SW films per year, and so far I've seen no evidence of that being the likely outcome. So far they've managed one per year for three years (soon to be four years), and we've only got firm details of a fifth film (Episode IX). We've no idea when or over how long Rian Johnson's trilogy will emerge, and only really have rumours about potential further spin-offs (e.g. Obi-Wan? Yoda? Boba Fett?).

And even if they do manage to accomplish that rate of release it's still a long way short of that seen in the ~~superhero~~ superhero/comic genre over recent and coming years:

2016
Deadpool
Batman v Superman
Captain America 3
X-Men Apocalypse
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (2?)
Suicide Squad
Doctor Strange

2017
Logan
Power Rangers
Guardians of the Galaxy 2
Wonder Woman
Spider Man
Thor 3
Justice League

2018
Black Panther
Avengers Infinity War
Deadpool 2
Ant Man 2
X-Men Dark Phoenix
Aquaman

And that's just from skimming through Wikipedia's year-in-film pages for names I recognise, not accounting for animated films like Lego Batman, Incredibles 2, other similar sci-fi action movies or video game-related franchises like the upcoming Tomb Raider (again).

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: January 29, 2018, 12:45:08 PM »

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Quote from: Pali on January 24, 2018, 04:48:14 PM

And yet each of these has made comebacks in recent years, with "La La Land" nearly winning best picture, with "There Will Be Blood" (and even "Logan"), with the recent Spartacus series. Yes, they were overdone, but that was because EVERYONE was doing them, not because 1 movie was coming out each year. I agree that superhero movies are reaching the oversaturation point, but so does Marvel, which is why they're being more experimental as they go.

Granted, but in five years? That may not still be the case, if DSC remains successful.

Can you actually provide some numbers to support this claim? edit: I ask this because I can easily provide numbers showing that Marvel's box office results have overall been improving over time, not diminishing: http://www.boxofficemojo.com/franchises/chart/?view=main&id=marvelcomics.htm&p=.htm shows the peak with Avengers 1, but Avengers 2 outperformed the other movies, Iron Man 3 outperformed the other Iron Man movies, Guardians 2 outperformed Guardians 1, Ragnarok outperformed the other Thor movies, Civil War the other Cap movies... they've made MORE money as they've gone on, not less.

Yeah, die hard Star Trek fan, so I can indeed do that.

They should've stopped with the OT then, because I don't think the prequels were Star Wars's best chance at going out on a high note - I'd say the sequels so far have been far superior to the prequels, and I'm far happier with them being the swan song for the franchise if that's how things turn out.

You're missing the basic point here, while also confirming my point on the Westerns and Rome/ with very few exceptions spaced out over the last two decades you can count on one hand successful or remotely memorable films that fall into that genera and equally few TV series with nearly every one being about dying out AS a theme. You even admit to beginning to feel the superhero oversaturation. The same forces that pushed these genera to deaths door are being reflected directly in the superhero genera and Disney is planning MULTIPLE film releases PER year of SW. TFA didn't do great because it was a superior film, it did so because of nostalgia, not having direct competition and a decad break in SW. While TLJ got many views it received a 49% rating because unlike TFA it didn't have the gap. And that is now, wait til we have 3 or more films a year. SW will cease being a phenomenon and become mundane mass produced normalcy until it dies from lack of profit.

Posted by: Admiral Stephen

« on: January 28, 2018, 09:09:30 PM »

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Quote from: GreyStar on January 28, 2018, 02:40:44 AM

Just using the stats when it suits your case. There’s been reports of review bombing attempts for the Last Jedi because it had asian, black, and female protagonists. So the reviews on RT are not completely credibile for that reason, and also because people likely to review a movie are ones more concerned with quality to begin with, while many average movie goers, even if they hate a movie, simply don’t.

For example, I’ve spent hours extolling my hatred for TFA, dedciated a few days worth of my life to it. And never have I once gave it a bad review on any offical site. So yeah, the stats aren’t always reliable.

Secondly, and the real reason that your post irks me so nuch, is the complete and utter fact that it’s cherry picking stats. TFA has after the year since it’s release an 88% approval rating by audience, and somehow a 93% by critics. And that movie was terrible. Great for Mr. Peutro who has a compelling arguement for liking the movie, but overall terrible. So can you really trust the stats when you consider all that?

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on January 28, 2018, 09:59:39 AM

Can i point out that reports are reports. Your complain Xizer is using something that stats that are not "completely accurate" and then you use something that is not completely true. As someone who knows how rotten tomatoes works they have a system in place to both detect bots, and troll posts. So no, you are incorrect, but i will see at least maybe 1-5% of the reviews could be trolls. However that is not enough to lower the films audience score that low, so yes acutal people that are not s posted legit reviews that gave it a low score.

As for TFA this is a simple reason. If was given the benefit of the doubt, people say okay that's cool and they get a chance and most like it(I did not because the more i watched it the more it bother me, compare to TLJ which i liked even more every time i see it) So yeah the reviews are 100% accurate but they represent alot of perple

I've read those same reports, but there's no way that score isn't at least somewhat reflective of what the audience thinks. I wasn't the biggest fan of either TFA or TLJ (I did like Rouge One), but I was one of those who did think TLJ could have been waaayyy better than it turned out to be. I feel Disney missed a huge opportunity with TLJ. I think there are fans out there that were hoping for way more from TLJ after TFA left so much unanswered, and their reviews are reflecting that.

Posted by: Illidan Stormrage

« on: January 28, 2018, 09:59:39 AM »

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Quote from: GreyStar on January 28, 2018, 02:40:44 AM

Just using the stats when it suits your case. There’s been reports of review bombing attempts for the Last Jedi because it had asian, black, and female protagonists. So the reviews on RT are not completely credibile for that reason, and also because people likely to review a movie are ones more concerned with quality to begin with, while many average movie goers, even if they hate a movie, simply don’t.

Secondly, and the real reason that your post irks me so nuch, is the complete and utter fact that it’s cherry picking stats. TFA has after the year since it’s release an 88% approval rating by audience, and somehow a 93% by critics. And that movie was terrible. Great for Mr. Peutro who has a compelling arguement for liking the movie, but overall terrible. So can you really trust the stats when you consider all that?

Can i point out that reports are reports. Your complain Xizer is using something that stats that are not "completely accurate" and then you use something that is not completely true. As someone who knows how rotten tomatoes works they have a system in place to both detect bots, and troll posts. So no, you are incorrect, but i will see at least maybe 1-5% of the reviews could be trolls. However that is not enough to lower the films audience score that low, so yes acutal people that are not s posted legit reviews that gave it a low score.

As for TFA this is a simple reason. If was given the benefit of the doubt, people say okay that's cool and they get a chance and most like it(I did not because the more i watched it the more it bother me, compare to TLJ which i liked even more every time i see it) So yeah the reviews are 100% accurate but they represent alot of perple

Posted by: Pali

« on: January 28, 2018, 04:21:52 AM »

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Quote from: GreyStar on January 28, 2018, 02:40:44 AM

Secondly, and the real reason that your post irks me so nuch, is the complete and utter fact that it’s cherry picking stats. TFA has after the year since it’s release an 88% approval rating by audience, and somehow a 93% by critics. And that movie was terrible. Great for Mr. Peutro who has a compelling arguement for liking the movie, but overall terrible. So can you really trust the stats when you consider all that?

The reason for this is that a movie being terrible is a subjective judgment, not an objective one. It's very possible you're simply in the 12% that don't like the movie, if we are charitable and assume that the 88% approval rating accurately reflects general opinion. There's nothing wrong with holding a minority opinion regarding art, but don't mistake your own opinion of a piece of art as being an objective fact regarding that piece. If I had to give TFA a thumbs up or thumbs down, I'd definitely give it a thumbs up - it's a flawed film in some ways, as is any film to some degree, but I'd never call it terrible. edit: In short, this is simply a difference of opinion, and neither of our judgments of the movie are objectively correct or incorrect.

Your overall point, however, I fully agree with - user/audience approval ratings online for films, games, or what-have-you are going to be heavily weighted by extreme opinions, and it is a mistake to assume that those opinions are all approaching the subject from the same perspective, share the same concerns, or accurately reflect the percentage of the audience that shares such an opinion.

edit:

Quote from: Lord Xizer on January 27, 2018, 12:08:32 AM

This is my feelings on the matter. There comes a time when something needs to end.

There have been 3 Star Wars films released in the last decade, versus enough superhero films that a best 50 list from the 2002-2012 decade can be made - and that is from an article from the same year Avengers came out, which was arguably before or right as Marvel really hit its stride. http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chi-20120827-top-superhero-movies-pictures-photogallery.html Respectfully, but Star Wars has a LONG way to go before it reaches the exhaustion point that superhero films may be approaching. Edit: Narrow it to just the last three years and the big companies and we've had 7 Marvel movies and 4 DC, versus 3 Star Wars. In 2018 alone we will have 1 Star Wars versus 3 Marvel and 1 DC. Superhero movies are coming out at a 4-1 rate compared to Star Wars movies even if we compare only the big names for the last three years and the near future.

Posted by: GreyStar

« on: January 28, 2018, 02:40:44 AM »

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Quote from: Admiral Stephen on January 27, 2018, 06:04:22 PM

Disney had better be careful with the next few Star Wars movies they make. They may be in dangerous territory with some of the fan base. Looking at Rotten Tomatoes, I see that only 49% of audience members liked The Last Jedi. Critics seemed to like the film (91%), but a lot of fans really seemed to not like it. So it does seem to be a little more than the hardcore fans like ourselves who are a bit weary of Disney.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

Just using the stats when it suits your case. There’s been reports of review bombing attempts for the Last Jedi because it had asian, black, and female protagonists. So the reviews on RT are not completely credibile for that reason, and also because people likely to review a movie are ones more concerned with quality to begin with, while many average movie goers, even if they hate a movie, simply don’t.

For example, I’ve spent hours extolling my hatred for TFA, dedciated a few days worth of my life to it. And never have I once gave it a bad review on any offical site. So yeah, the stats aren’t always reliable.

Secondly, and the real reason that your post irks me so nuch, is the complete and utter fact that it’s cherry picking stats. TFA has after the year since it’s release an 88% approval rating by audience, and somehow a 93% by critics. And that movie was terrible. Great for Mr. Peutro who has a compelling arguement for liking the movie, but overall terrible. So can you really trust the stats when you consider all that?

Posted by: Illidan Stormrage

« on: January 27, 2018, 07:37:44 PM »

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Quote from: Pali on January 24, 2018, 09:15:20 PM

And this is why they have little to worry about when it comes to pleasing the hardcore fanbase.

This conversation is going in circles. I think I'm done with it.

You clearly did not understand why i said that. I said that because my patience is alot better then other star wars fans and because i have not been overly pissed off yet(though i might skip a Obi Wan movie, or Episode 9). Using me as a representation of all star wars fans is a weak argument.

Quote from: Pali on January 23, 2018, 09:24:49 PM

I think you're forgetting just how much bad or mediocre Star Wars content there was with the old EU. You freely admit that there have been plenty of stories you've enjoyed with the new, so why do some failures make you so certain that things are going horribly wrong?

So don't read too much into people complaining online?

To address this point: The EU has alot of bad and mediocre stories, because it is so damn big. Hundreds of books, comics, and short stories. Canon has good stories becasuse it is so damn small, but it does have very very bad stories and terrible writing. Some failures also show a sign in a decline in quality.

2nd point: their is a difference between toxicity and legitament critism. Fans have legititament critisms and they should at least be reconized. Toxcity would be more death threats, insults, and all around hate. If i call something stupid and ilogical based on facts and lofic it is not toxcity its critism.

Posted by: Admiral Stephen

« on: January 27, 2018, 06:04:22 PM »

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Disney had better be careful with the next few Star Wars movies they make. They may be in dangerous territory with some of the fan base. Looking at Rotten Tomatoes, I see that only 49% of audience members liked The Last Jedi. Critics seemed to like the film (91%), but a lot of fans really seemed to not like it. So it does seem to be a little more than the hardcore fans like ourselves who are a bit weary of Disney.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

Posted by: Lord Xizer

« on: January 27, 2018, 12:08:32 AM »

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This is my feelings on the matter. There comes a time when something needs to end.

Posted by: AppTRL

« on: January 26, 2018, 07:16:14 PM »

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Quote from: Pali on January 24, 2018, 09:15:20 PM

And this is why they have little to worry about when it comes to pleasing the hardcore fanbase.

This conversation is going in circles. I think I'm done with it.

Ya, this thread was exhausting to just read. Severe case of tunnel vision tbh.

Posted by: Pali

« on: January 24, 2018, 09:15:20 PM »

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Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on January 24, 2018, 08:33:14 PM

(but to be fair i will see star wars most of the time.)

And this is why they have little to worry about when it comes to pleasing the hardcore fanbase.

This conversation is going in circles. I think I'm done with it.

Posted by: Illidan Stormrage

« on: January 24, 2018, 08:33:14 PM »

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Quote from: Pali on January 24, 2018, 04:48:14 PM

You are being incredibly self-contradictory here: you want stories that are about different characters we don't know - except the characters we do know you want them to tell stories about. You want original stories, except you want adaptations of stories you already like. Make a choice. You have no idea what the story will be for the Han Solo or Kenobi movies, both of which "nobody really wanted" is absolutely NOT true for as plenty of people have been requesting exactly those stories, so how can you already judge them to not be original? Simply because they include a character or two you know, which is what you've been asking for?

People requested the Kenobi movie they could see both Darth Maul and Obi Wan could face off for the last time. Now that Maul is dead canonically in the duel in rebels most people dropped off the idea of a Kenobi movie. The other reason was because we had stupid theories like Rey Kenobi which people bought into which made people want it more. Now that is off the table their is no reason to do a Kenobi movie as both Mr.Sunday Movies, Star Wars Only, and many of friends.
Also where is my self-contradictory? If your talking about me saying I "Maybe" want a Darth Vader movie then you did not read my comment. I was saying that Vader was one of the only characters you can really get away with this(maybe Boba Fett but it have to be like a bounty hunter movei with Bossk, Dengar and maybe Cad Bane). Vader is someone who has many intresting both canon and legends stories. The thing also about Vader is he is terrifying and really is one of the greatest bad guys on all time. A moive about him is possible because that gap bewteen 3-4 provides many oppotunities for creative stories. Also more people want this because of Rogue One showing what Vader can truly do. Keep in mind i put this as a "maybe" meaning i would be fine if they did it(its not a orgin film, but maybe a story that could show how ruthless and capable vader is). Han Solo is different. The Han Solo movie should not happen becuase of a few reasons.
1. Its impossible to replace Harrison Ford and not many people will be happy with how they portray him. While i am all for taking Disney taking risks i am not for them taking stupid risks. Han Solo is a character more treatable to TV Show(non-live action) or a series of books.
2. It is simply to familiar. I need new characters and keep in mind Kira(Emila Clarks Character) is the only new protagonist. Han Solo, Lando, and Chewbaca are all central characters to OT. I dont need their orgins.
3. It is predictable. We know we are going to see Han win the Falcon, we know we are going to see how Chewbaca met Han, we know we are going to see Kessel, we know we are going to see the Kessel Run, and we know we are going to see Lando, the hutts and the underworld. Nothing new can really be shown. However i will credit them on something this movie is doing right, apparently the Pyke Syndicate is going to be in the film along with Corrilean Hounds, and Mibamm. Thats a great way to win over me into seeing this moive. (but to be fair i will see star wars most of the time.)
4. Their are better alternatives such as
Bounty Hunter movie: Made up of the best of best bounty Hunters including Dengar, Bossk, and Boba Fett(this is one exception to my rule on new stories)
A Imperial Movie: We have secene small little things in the movie about the Empire, but really like how Rogue One showed us the Evil of the rebellion, this film should convey the good of the Empire.
A movie involing Mandolirians: These guys are basically spartans and with that notion comes great potential in a Mandolorian War film.
The Old Republic: Lets face it, this time needs some lore and hopefully we will see that down the line.
A Snoke Movie?: Who the hell is Snoke?
A movie about the Chiss and Thrawn: This will happen because people will evenutally ask for it.
A top gun style starfighter movie: Rogue Squadron, the 181st, or a completely new fighter unit. This would be a nice idea since space battles are always fun to watch.