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Topic Summary

Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: December 27, 2017, 06:01:19 AM »

Quote from: Shermos on December 27, 2017, 04:06:47 AM
I'm honestly surprised so much of the fandom didn't like TLJ. It's not a perfect movie, and since I started this thread, I've come across a lot of critiques which are perfectly valid. The thing I appreciated was that Rian took risks and took the story and lore into a new direction. The biggest complaint about TFA was that it was too similar to the original film, and now people are complaining about TLJ being too different. I can understand criticisms such as what was done with Luke's character, but I can also understand why Rian took him in the direction he did.

Since Disney decanonised the old EU, I wanted it to take Star Wars in a new direction, and TLJ is much closer to what I was hoping for than TFA was. The OLD EU and Disney canon exist in parallel universes in my mind. I can enjoy both.

A much heavier discussion has been going on in the spoiler thread. TLJ is all people are talking about on this forum in recent weeks. But maybe this goes to most Star Wars-related forums at the moment, idk. It certainly seems like a divisive topic. People either love or hate this film. Not many consider it an average one, as I do, for instance.

I absolutely agree with your take on the EU. The "canon" doesn't have anything in common with it, spirit-wise, so they absolutely should be considered to be separate things, which they are. Now I sound like Anton Chigurh, lol. But you're right. The one way for me to deal with my disappointment with TLJ, and the direction the "canon" is going, was to remind myself that Thrawn's Revenge, Heir to the Empire, Knights of the Old Republic, etc., still exist, and won't ever go away.
Posted by: Shermos
« on: December 27, 2017, 04:06:47 AM »

I'm honestly surprised so much of the fandom didn't like TLJ. It's not a perfect movie, and since I started this thread, I've come across a lot of critiques which are perfectly valid. The thing I appreciated was that Rian took risks and took the story and lore into a new direction. The biggest complaint about TFA was that it was too similar to the original film, and now people are complaining about TLJ being too different. I can understand criticisms such as what was done with Luke's character, but I can also understand why Rian took him in the direction he did.

Since Disney decanonised the old EU, I wanted it to take Star Wars in a new direction, and TLJ is much closer to what I was hoping for than TFA was. The OLD EU and Disney canon exist in parallel universes in my mind. I can enjoy both.   
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 19, 2017, 05:02:49 PM »

Quote from: Pali on December 19, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
Addressing any of those points requires a spoiler discussion.  Suffice to say, I don't agree.

And I'd be happy to both hear you out in such a discussion and offer civilized debate.
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 19, 2017, 04:58:07 PM »

Addressing any of those points requires a spoiler discussion.  Suffice to say, I don't agree.
Posted by: turtle225
« on: December 19, 2017, 11:01:02 AM »

Quote from: Pali on December 19, 2017, 04:08:29 AM
The main characters all had solid arcs, the action was fun and well done, the humor was a great reprieve from the weighty character beats surrounding it.

Note: If you are really strict on spoilers then don't read on but I'll be vague.

I actually disagree with you on these points but I can't be too specific without spoilers. Two of the three main character's arcs could have been avoided entirely if characters in the movie weren't idiots. Only one of the three main characters actually seems to show some development.

The action was fun sure but consistently immersion breaking. Clearly made for Hollywood instead of logic.

The humor I disagree with also. A lot of it felt out of place and gag worthy. I know that humor can be a nice change of pace in a darker story but it just didn't feel natural to me.

I know it is a matter of personal taste so don't think that I'm attacking you or anything, I just didn't feel the same way.

I want to point out that regardless of the Star Wars paint on this movie, it is a badly written movie that has no world building, plot holes, flat/irrelevant/idiot characters and story arcs, and just overall bad writing. I want to make it clear that I don't just hate this movie because Disney made it and killed the EU, but really just that I believe it was a bad movie in general.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: December 19, 2017, 07:01:03 AM »

Quote from: Pali on December 19, 2017, 05:47:38 AM
We'll have to save that discussion for a spoiler discussion then.  To me, the soul of Star Wars was absolutely there from start to finish - and was in TFA and R1 as well.  But I suspect that what I view as the soul of Star Wars, and what you view as that soul, aren't quite the same thing.

I'm not saying the fandom shouldn't be pleased - I'm taking amusement in that the fandom is impossible to please, because the fandom is huge and diverse and every individual within loves their own unique combination of things about Star Wars, and so trying to please one will inevitably piss off another.  I've also been amused by how Star Trek Discovery has been received by lifelong Star Trek fans - many similarly say that it hasn't felt like Star Trek, but as another of those lifelong fans I couldn't disagree more in that case either.

Yep, you're right :) I happen to be a Star Trek fan as well (to a lesser extent), but this probably isn't the place to voice my frustration about that franchise too.  ;D
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 19, 2017, 05:47:38 AM »

Quote from: Major Grodin Tierce on December 19, 2017, 04:56:02 AM
Except this bit. The reason I, and I feel many people, found some merit in Rogue One, was because it DID actually feel like a Star Wars movie, even with all it's obvious flaws and rather undeveloped characters. But if TLJ felt like Star Wars to you, than I'm genuinely happy for you. I'm actually planning on watching TLJ in the cinema again. Because it's a decent sci-fi action film which REMINDS and has a SCENT of Star Wars. And I realize that it's unfortunately all I will get as a Star Wars fan, so I might as well try to enjoy it as what it is. But to me, that spirit and soul is absent in its essence in this sequel trilogy. I will go in detail once we start discussing spoilers in another thread I imagine.

We'll have to save that discussion for a spoiler discussion then.  To me, the soul of Star Wars was absolutely there from start to finish - and was in TFA and R1 as well.  But I suspect that what I view as the soul of Star Wars, and what you view as that soul, aren't quite the same thing.

Quote
Fandom might be difficult to please, but who if not said fandom deserves to get pleased? Whom are those movies made for, if not for the fans?

I'm not saying the fandom shouldn't be pleased - I'm taking amusement in that the fandom is impossible to please, because the fandom is huge and diverse and every individual within loves their own unique combination of things about Star Wars, and so trying to please one will inevitably piss off another.  I've also been amused by how Star Trek Discovery has been received by lifelong Star Trek fans - many similarly say that it hasn't felt like Star Trek, but as another of those lifelong fans I couldn't disagree more in that case either.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: December 19, 2017, 04:56:02 AM »

Quote from: Pali on December 19, 2017, 04:08:29 AM
Personally, I'm never going to stop being amused by how impossible it is to please a fandom. ;)

I loved it.  Perfect movie?  Hell no.  Did it feel like Star Wars?  Oh yeah.  Did I have a great time throughout, and come out wanting to watch it again?  You bet. 

Like another commenter above, I'd place it between Rogue One and TFA in my overall judgment, but I also score those movies a lot higher than many of you seem to.  If I had to place them on a 1-10 numerical scale, TFA would be around an 8, maybe 8.25 from me, TLJ would be an 8.5-9 (need to see how it holds up on rewatches), and Rogue One would be a solid 9-9.25.  The main characters all had solid arcs, the action was fun and well done, the humor was a great reprieve from the weighty character beats surrounding it, and it continued to explore themes of hope, of internal conflict, of duty, and of learning from past mistakes.  I had a great time and I look forward to watching it again, either in theaters or at home.

I actually agree with pretty much everything you say, about the arcs, the action, some of the humor (I even enjoyed the overload of cute creatures in this one).

Quote from: Pali on December 19, 2017, 04:08:29 AM
Did it feel like Star Wars?  Oh yeah.

Except this bit. The reason I, and I feel many people, found some merit in Rogue One, was because it DID actually feel like a Star Wars movie, even with all it's obvious flaws and rather undeveloped characters. But if TLJ felt like Star Wars to you, than I'm genuinely happy for you. I'm actually planning on watching TLJ in the cinema again. Because it's a decent sci-fi action film which REMINDS and has a SCENT of Star Wars. And I realize that it's unfortunately all I will get as a Star Wars fan, so I might as well try to enjoy it as what it is. But to me, that spirit and soul is absent in its essence in this sequel trilogy. I will go in detail once we start discussing spoilers in another thread I imagine.

Fandom might be difficult to please, but who if not said fandom deserves to get pleased? Whom are those movies made for, if not for the fans? Indeed, the one and only conclusion that we are left with is that we should let go of the drama, and just take what we get. It's never getting better film-wise. I, for one, am tired of being the grumpy hardcore Star Wars nerd constantly unhappy with Disney's work. I haven't changed my opinion on anything, but I've decided to accept the way things are now, and to stop complaining from now on. There is absolutely no point in it.
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 19, 2017, 04:08:29 AM »

Personally, I'm never going to stop being amused by how impossible it is to please a fandom. ;)

I loved it.  Perfect movie?  Hell no.  Did it feel like Star Wars?  Oh yeah.  Did I have a great time throughout, and come out wanting to watch it again?  You bet. 

Like another commenter above, I'd place it between Rogue One and TFA in my overall judgment, but I also score those movies a lot higher than many of you seem to.  If I had to place them on a 1-10 numerical scale, TFA would be around an 8, maybe 8.25 from me, TLJ would be an 8.5-9 (need to see how it holds up on rewatches), and Rogue One would be a solid 9-9.25.  The main characters all had solid arcs, the action was fun and well done, the humor was a great reprieve from the weighty character beats surrounding it, and it continued to explore themes of hope, of internal conflict, of duty, and of learning from past mistakes.  I had a great time and I look forward to watching it again, either in theaters or at home.
Posted by: Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus
« on: December 18, 2017, 02:00:34 PM »

Quote from: turtle225 on December 18, 2017, 12:55:15 AM
I harbor a lot of bitterness I'll admit. It just kills me when they throw out all of these great stories and replace it with garbage. We lose Mara Jade and get this version of Luke instead, terrible. We lose Jaina/Jacen/Anakin and get Kylo Ren, also terrible.

Amen, brother.

Quote from: turtle225 on December 18, 2017, 12:55:15 AM
Disney just wants to milk their cash cow.

That's exactly what it's all about for them, they don't take it seriously or care for the fans, never did.

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on December 17, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
Heir to the Empire should not be adapted into a film. I rather them not mess up a great story imo.

First off, I was only making an example with an objectively great Star Wars EU book. If I was making Ep. 7 I'd start earlier in the timeline with Pestage taking over after Endor, etc. Although imo it'll work much better as a TV show, something like early Game of Thrones, if centered around the Imperial Remnant, political infighting, etc. But that'll never happen, so I might as well not even start this conversation.
And also, what's the point now, since they've already made Ep, 7 and 8, they will never get back to adapting EU if they didn't do it in the first place. Even Thrawn is now a pathetic canon character that will end up getting killed off at the end of an animated show for kids. There is 0 chance of Disney returning him to his origins and making him the character he was supposed to be. The reason I said that Heir to the Empire should have been made into Ep. 7 was just me repeating the old argument about how Disney messed up the Star Wars universe and that getting rid of the EU didn't work out for the better. After two episodes of Disney's sequel trilogy that becomes clear as day.

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on December 17, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
I want new star wars stories. Hopefully the new trilogy Ryan Johnson is spearheading can provide that. I haven't seen TLJ, but even if it fails i would not Ryan for its faults.

Well, wait until you see this one. I'm pretty sure that no one was pressuring Rian Johnson into writing exactly the things he did in the script for this film. And yes, I'm not necessarily saying that it's impossible to create great new Star Wars stories. If Disney did it - I'd be the first to congratulate them on it. But sadly they haven't.

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on December 17, 2017, 09:03:16 AM
I actually blame JJ because he laid the universe's ground rules Ryan has to follow

I agree, and that's what I said in my original comment. JJ is the absolute bafoon here, but unfortunately Rian didn't do a much better job either. But maybe it is because JJ left him with a mountain to climb with TFA.

P.S.: That said, maybe I will learn to appreciate these new SW films more with time. It's obvious now that the EU that I love so much, and which for me, for the most part, captures the spirit of Star Wars better than even some of the original films - has nothing in common with this sequel trilogy. And maybe I should just accept it and move on, and appreciate them as separate things. EU/Legends is Star Wars to me, and those new films are just some fun action/sci-fi movies that also happen to kinda look like Star Wars a bit. Maybe I should be thankful even for that, and not take it as seriously as I do.
Posted by: turtle225
« on: December 18, 2017, 12:55:15 AM »

Quote from: Illidan Stormrage on December 18, 2017, 12:21:25 AM
The problem is u cant do these books
The orginial cast are either dead or too old.
I have grown on the new canon a bit(though in all seriousnees fuck all the Aftermath books, and fuck Operation: Cinder)
Seeing Thrawn is pretty cool and the whole idea that the rebellion really just were terrorist dicks is really intresting.
Sure it has it cons *cough* *cough* Operation: Cinder *Cough* Aftermath *cough* *cough*
However you cant denied that some stories in canon are better then certain elements of legends.
For instance: The Inferno Squadron book(fuck the BF2 campagin) has a better story then some of the books i read in legends like crystal star(that was balls trippy)

I haven't read any books on the Disney-canon side but I enjoyed every Timothy Zahn book and most of the X-Wing and New Jedi Order series.

Maybe book adaptations would have been bad (probably), but at least if they had gone that route the original canon wouldn't have been dead.

I harbor a lot of bitterness I'll admit. It just kills me when they throw out all of these great stories and replace it with garbage. We lose Mara Jade and get this version of Luke instead, terrible. We lose Jaina/Jacen/Anakin and get Kylo Ren, also terrible. Disney just wants to milk their cash cow.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: December 18, 2017, 12:21:25 AM »

Quote from: turtle225 on December 18, 2017, 12:05:58 AM
It was pretty much horrible honestly.
In my eyes, Disney will always be making fan-fiction and Legends is the true story. Maybe if Disney had taken the time to read some of the books they would have realized that they didn't need to make new movies at all. Book adaptations would have been way better (even if they ruined the books).
The problem is u cant do these books
The orginial cast are either dead or too old.
I have grown on the new canon a bit(though in all seriousnees fuck all the Aftermath books, and fuck Operation: Cinder)
Seeing Thrawn is pretty cool and the whole idea that the rebellion really just were terrorist dicks is really intresting.
Sure it has it cons *cough* *cough* Operation: Cinder *Cough* Aftermath *cough* *cough*
However you cant denied that some stories in canon are better then certain elements of legends.
For instance: The Inferno Squadron book(fuck the BF2 campagin) has a better story then some of the books i read in legends like crystal star(that was balls trippy)
Posted by: turtle225
« on: December 18, 2017, 12:05:58 AM »

It was pretty much horrible honestly.

As much as I didn't like episode 7, I thought there was still a chance something could be made of it. After 8, I think this ship is sunk.

In my eyes, Disney will always be making fan-fiction and Legends is the true story. Maybe if Disney had taken the time to read some of the books they would have realized that they didn't need to make new movies at all. Book adaptations would have been way better (even if they ruined the books).
Posted by: Mitthrawnuruodo
« on: December 17, 2017, 04:39:14 PM »

I've just seen The Last Jedi today, and to quote Luke in the film, "this is not going to go the way you think!" I can tell you right now, it is not a straight-up rehash of Empire. In fact, I think this one adds weight to the interpretation of The Force Awakens as not being a remake of A New Hope, but taking inspiration from all three original films. That one failed to differentiate itself from A New Hope due to the fact that it did the films in order which made it look like just A New Hope from a zoomed-out less intricate view of the film. The Last Jedi pays its story-telling homages differently which makes it appear more original. Sure, it owes most of it to Empire, but while Empire starts with a land-battle evacuation and the Rebel Alliance as a faction basically disappear for the rest of the film, Last Jedi starts with a space-battle evacuation, half the story is dedicated to the survival of the Resistance, and it ends with a land-battle instead. But when Rey confronts Snoke, that sequence takes cues from Return of the Jedi, and without spoiling it, the final confrontation of the film then harks back to A New Hope. All of this is interspersed with new story beats and new twists that steer the film in a different direction.

My main criticism is that for a lot of the film, it's a laugh-a-minute, almost making it a comedy film. Captain Phasma is still poorly treated, but I guess it is what it is with her. And Snoke is still a big mystery, one that I guess will be covered one way or another eventually. Otherwise, this is definitely the Star Wars sequel we've been looking for.
Posted by: Illidan Stormrage
« on: December 17, 2017, 09:03:16 AM »

Quote from: Major Grodin Tierce on December 16, 2017, 03:58:16 PM
If Heir to the Empire was adapted into film - that would have been your perfect Ep. 7. Instead, Disney have decided to make up their own thing, which now quite obviously didn't work. But, to end this on a little bit of a hopeful note, I guess the true spirit of Star Wars lives in people like us, here on this forum, and a few other places. Guys like Corey and everyone here, are keeping this universe alive in a way it deserves. And I thank you all for it, just for caring the same way I do. May the force be with us all.
Heir to the Empire should not be adapted into a film. I rather them not mess up a great story imo.
I want new star wars stories. Hopefully the new trilogy Ryan Johnson is spearheading can provide that. I haven't seen TLJ, but even if it fails i would not Ryan for its faults. I actually blame JJ because he laid the universe's ground rules Ryan has to follow, and Disney simply because they don't keep consistent Directors with this new trilogy.

Honestly i trust Ryan Johnson more than i trust JJ. I would though prefer in Ryan Johnson could direct the spinoffs, since i believe in that field he would do best.

Also Jar Jar Arbams better not F*** up the next movie, otherwise we will have Disney step in and creative freedom will be out the window.

BTW, who thinks it is possible for the Han Solo movie to take the title from attack of the clones as the worse Star Wars movie?
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