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Topic Summary

Posted by: the_trots
« on: April 28, 2017, 12:03:14 AM »

Quote from: HobbesHurlbut on April 26, 2017, 08:05:21 AM
No. We want Assault Frigate to be changed because of HER lore. I already listed my findings from the ORIGINAL sources that first statted out both ships. see below.
Now, what makes AF unique? She's faster and more maneuverable because of cut down superstructure and added maneuvering fins. She has stronger shields to make up for loss of her hull durability. And well, apparently deploying (supporting) two squadrons of starfighters (in ICW 2.2). Compared to Imperial Dreadnaught.

Yes sir.  Hobbes has gotten to the bottom of this.
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 26, 2017, 12:35:33 PM »



Because it leads to shots like this.
Posted by: HobbesHurlbut
« on: April 26, 2017, 12:10:44 PM »

Quote from: GreyStar on April 26, 2017, 11:54:21 AM
I prefer the TR / Rebellion model.
Heh what was it about the first variant you liked?

I like the 2nd variant because it looks cleaner and feels less haphazard for being a stripped down Imperial Dreadnaught. The 'chin structures' (using the Nebulon-B's chin structures) on the other hand I'm more or less ambivalent about.
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 26, 2017, 11:54:21 AM »

I prefer the TR / Rebellion model.
Posted by: HobbesHurlbut
« on: April 26, 2017, 11:46:31 AM »

Quote from: GreyStar on April 26, 2017, 09:35:39 AM
It doesn't have any uniqueness in that state as it's just a Strike Cruiser with no ion weaponrey.
I like the appearance of the 2nd variant of Assault Frigate Mk I (my banner :P).
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 26, 2017, 09:35:39 AM »

It doesn't have any uniqueness in that state as it's just a Strike Cruiser with no ion weaponrey.
Posted by: HobbesHurlbut
« on: April 26, 2017, 08:05:21 AM »

Quote from: GreyStar on April 26, 2017, 07:00:29 AM
Well let's just kill any unique qualities the ship has then.

As a side note is the only reason you two want the Assualt Frigate changed is because of the Dreadnaught's lore?
No. We want Assault Frigate to be changed because of HER lore. I already listed my findings from the ORIGINAL sources that first statted out both ships. see below.
Quote from: HobbesHurlbut on April 24, 2017, 03:13:06 PM
In the Imperial Sourcebook 1st edition, Dreadnaught had 10 laser cannons, 20 quad laser cannons, and 10 turbolaser batteries.
In 2nd edition; 10 turbolaser cannons, 20 quad turbolaser cannons, and 10 turbolaser batteries.
The entry for both editions is same. The issue with the entry is that it does not SAY if the refits affect the type and/or number of the weapons at all.

Now for Rebel Alliance sourcebook 2nd edition: 15 laser cannons, 20 quad laser cannons, 15 turbolaser batteries.

The problem? That entry said the AF is a highly-modified IMPERIAL Dreadnaught. Which both Imperial Sourcebook Dreadnought entries are. So someone dropped the ball for the Rebel Alliance Sourcebook's entry for Assault Frigate when they revised it for 2E, especially as the laser cannons disappeared from the 2E Imperial Dreadnaught, replaced by their turbolaser counterparts.

Now, what makes AF unique? She's faster and more maneuverable because of cut down superstructure and added maneuvering fins. She has stronger shields to make up for loss of her hull durability. And well, apparently deploying (supporting) two squadrons of starfighters (in ICW 2.2). Compared to Imperial Dreadnaught.
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 26, 2017, 07:00:29 AM »

Well let's just kill any unique qualities the ship has then.

As a side note is the only reason you two want the Assualt Frigate changed is because of the Dreadnaught's lore?
Posted by: the_trots
« on: April 25, 2017, 11:28:27 PM »

Quote from: briG on April 25, 2017, 11:09:47 PM
the fact that the assault frigate is *drumroll*-

-bad.



Yes.  This is it.
Posted by: briG
« on: April 25, 2017, 11:09:47 PM »

Quote from: GreyStar on April 24, 2017, 05:35:41 PM
I don't really see the point of that considering that the NR does have a large list of almost useless frigates (which ships depends on fleet tactics). Depending on ship to ship firepower VS fighters VS shielding. Though last I checked the Dreadnaught was in large supply for the NR...

In addition I apologize for any past rudeness sometimes I get agitated and lash out passive aggressively on forums.

Thirdly I was reading up on Thrawn for an idea for a new mechanic in Ascendancy (Dummy Trading Ships) and noticed that Thrawn considered the Chimera outgunned by four Assault Frigates. While I can't calculate the DPS myself due to a lack of ability to read the mod's code, I can compare the raw number of guns.


So the question is of course then, should a group of double the pop cap of Assault Frigates be able to outgun an ISD2 with leader bonuses? As a side note, I guess Thrawn was really scared of those Proton Torpedoes. As an additional side note, according to Wookiepedia Assault Frigates carried these things on them. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gamma-class_assault_shuttle If the Assault Frigate really does need a buff, how about boarding parties eh? If that's in the base game. As a third side note, despite the umbilical docking cords not working in hyperspace Assault Frigates in 2.1 did carry X-Wings which can hyperspace on their own.

The point is variety and lore reasons that have already been described, detailing the crew requirements of the Assault Frigate compared to the standard Dreadnaught.

To answer your question...

From a balance perspective, no, a capital ship like an ISD is supposed to excel at fighting other ships(unless we're getting into even larger numbers of assault frigates). That and the fact that the assault frigate is *drumroll*-

-bad.

In game depending on if the Chimera was player controlled it would go something like this: Chimera focuses on one AF until shields drop and takes down turbolaser hardpoints and repeats with the 3 other ships until no threat remains. From a lore perspective, it would probably still have to hyperspace out because it's fighter complement would have been destroyed completely by that time, but not until destroying the Assault Frigates. From a gameplay perspective, it would win because the game doesn't count 'carried' starfighters as having units on the playing field(at least for TIE Fighters and such it doesn't).
Posted by: Slornie
« on: April 25, 2017, 05:00:57 PM »

Quote from: GreyStar on April 24, 2017, 05:35:41 PM
Thirdly I was reading up on Thrawn for an idea for a new mechanic in Ascendancy (Dummy Trading Ships) and noticed that Thrawn considered the Chimera outgunned by four Assault Frigates. While I can't calculate the DPS myself due to a lack of ability to read the mod's code, I can compare the raw number of guns.

Using 2.1 figures and bonuses.
[Stats were here]

So the question is of course then, should a group of double the pop cap of Assault Frigates be able to outgun an ISD2 with leader bonuses?

Going off my rough notes* on the numbers from 2.1 I have an ISD-II at 510 DPS (hull/shields) + 100 DPS (shields only), and an Assault Frigate at 180 DPS (hull/shield).  That would make the fight 510 (+ 100) vs 720, not including any command bonuses for either side and exclusive of any fighters.

Another comparison to make from later in the Thrawn Trilogy is the battle for the Katana Fleet, where Bel Iblis' six Katana-type Dreadnaughts (a variant of the basis from which the Assault Frigates are modified) were hard pressed against two ISD-Is but five of them outgunned Judicator after Peremptory was destroyed.  Of course another variable in this case is what proportion (and portion) of the standard Dreadnaught armament had been replaced with ion cannons - either as part of the Katana-type spec. or as post-capture modifications by Bel Iblis.


*Calculated against the standard armour category in the mod (Frigate).
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 24, 2017, 07:50:49 PM »

Yes I know that lasers do less damage against hulls and shields, if they didn't I would say the Assault Frigates might, might stand a chance. And like I said it was a raw guns comparison and as such it was obvious Thrawn in game was not in fact outgunned by those Frigates.

And yes I know the Assault Frigates were converted from Dreadnaughts and they had many outside the Katana Fleet, the Wookiepedia and I think the 2.1 manual nentions they had plenty to go around but not enough crews for them.

No I couldn't go against someone with four AFs VS the Chimera, I didn't have the time and friends were busy thus leading to the raw gun comparison, which even taking in the reduced heavy damage modifer still stands more or less.
Posted by: HobbesHurlbut
« on: April 24, 2017, 07:38:17 PM »

Laser have its damage reduced against frigate hull and shield. It's in here;  http://thrawnsrevenge.com/forums/index.php?topic=6482.0
"Laser Cannon Multipliers;
Vs. Fighter Shield/Armor 1x, Vs Frigate/Capital Shield 0.25x, Vs Ship Armor 0.5x, Vs Station Armor 0.25x"

Heavy Turbolaser is 30% more firepower than turbolaser (Heavy TB = 6.5, TB = 5)

You can do a skirmish with someone in multiplay to see how long 4 Assault Frigates last against Thrawn's CHimerea. Not counting the starfighters.

Also, NR has plenty of dreadnaughts, OUTSIDE Katana Fleet. Yes, but they much prefer to convert them into more Assault Frigate Mk. 1. You do know AF is converted from Dreadnaught?
Posted by: GreyStar
« on: April 24, 2017, 05:35:41 PM »

I don't really see the point of that considering that the NR does have a large list of almost useless frigates (which ships depends on fleet tactics). Depending on ship to ship firepower VS fighters VS shielding. Though last I checked the Dreadnaught was in large supply for the NR...

In addition I apologize for any past rudeness sometimes I get agitated and lash out passive aggressively on forums.

Thirdly I was reading up on Thrawn for an idea for a new mechanic in Ascendancy (Dummy Trading Ships) and noticed that Thrawn considered the Chimera outgunned by four Assault Frigates. While I can't calculate the DPS myself due to a lack of ability to read the mod's code, I can compare the raw number of guns.

Using 2.1 figures and bonuses.
Assuming the Chimera used Era 1 Fighters and factoring in Thrawn's bonuses (I don't have the figures for Era 2 fighters nor for the Chimera's fighters) and full fighter wing compliment. 25% Health, 10% Damage, 10% Shield, and 15% Speed increases. Guns in parenthesizes are using damage bonus.
544 (+54.4) Turbolasers.
32 (+3.2) Octuple Turbolasers.
12 (+1.2) Heavy Turbolasers.
40 (+4) Heavy Ion Cannons.
Tractor Beams.
3 TIE Fighters. (6+0.6 Laser Cannons)
1 TIE Interceptor (should be shielded but not represented in TR, unless I'm mistaken.) (4+0.4 Laser Cannons)
2 Bombers (possibly replaced by Simitars? One again not sure.) (2+0.2 Laser Cannons, 2+0.2 Proton Torpedos)
Assuming that a Heavy turret has double the firepower, feel free to correct me, doing the math it comes down to.
916.4 Turbolasers
88 Ion Cannons
Tractor Beams
13.2 Laser Cannons
2.2 Proton Torpedos

Now for the Assault Frigates
4 Assault Frigates
128 Turbolasers
128 Laser Cannons
160 Quad Laser Cannons
8 X-Wings (32 Laser Cannons, 16 Proton Torpedos)
Once again calculating raw gun amount
128 Turbolasers
800 Laser Cannons
16 Proton Torpedos

Now doing the math to figure out how outgunned Thrawn was.
128 Turbolasers / 916.4 Turbolasers = 0.139 Times Turbolaser Outgunned
0 Ion Cannons / 88 Ion Cannons = 0 Times Ion Cannons Outgunned
0 Tractor Beams / Undefined Tractor Beams = 0 Times Tractor Beams Outgunned
800 Laser Cannons / 13.2 Laser Cannons = 60.606 Times Laser Cannons Outgunned
16 Proton Torpedoes / 2.2 Proton Torpedoes = 7.272 Times Proton Torpedos Outgunned

So the question is of course then, should a group of double the pop cap of Assault Frigates be able to outgun an ISD2 with leader bonuses? As a side note, I guess Thrawn was really scared of those Proton Torpedoes. As an additional side note, according to Wookiepedia Assault Frigates carried these things on them. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Gamma-class_assault_shuttle If the Assault Frigate really does need a buff, how about boarding parties eh? If that's in the base game. As a third side note, despite the umbilical docking cords not working in hyperspace Assault Frigates in 2.1 did carry X-Wings which can hyperspace on their own.
Posted by: HobbesHurlbut
« on: April 24, 2017, 04:51:57 PM »

Not necessarily. This mean that Dreadnaught can go back to being Imperial faction aligned ship while the NR use Assault Frigate. Fire rate and range won't be cut back in TR.
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