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Author Topic: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon  (Read 1548 times)

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February 02, 2018, 05:23:40 AM

Offline taupin121

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2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« on: February 02, 2018, 05:23:40 AM »
Rolster ? ???

This faction belongs to a Story Group Canon mod, not one based on Legends timeline.

It's not because the dev' team is gonna use some heroes from TCW (such as Trench, as the CSI lacks space heroes) that they gonna add an entire (insignificant in both storyline and military capabilities) faction.

February 02, 2018, 07:31:10 AMReply #1

Offline Corey

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 07:31:10 AM »
Quote
This faction belongs to a Story Group Canon mod, not one based on Legends timeline.

We've talked about this in pretty much every news post so far, but to reiterate, we're not just sourcing ships and characters from it. The Clone Wars cartoon and every part of it is part of the Legends canon. The divergence between the new canon and Legends didn't happen until years after the CW was a thing. If you're ever unsure whether something counts as a legitimate source for the mod, the best place to check is the Essential Guide to Warfare.

We have also discussed the fact that, aside from that, the Shadow Collective isn't really a viable playable faction for many reasons (the fact that they didn't and couldn't have a useable space roster being only one of them), though. Illidan is free to try to post a potential unit list for them, but the content simply isn't there, and really can't be there for it. We really don't want to try to shoehorn a bunch of unrelated and unsuitable units into the faction for no other reason than to force it to be playable.  They will likely be present in some ways, but they really don't make a good option for an additional playable faction.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 07:36:00 AM by Corey »
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February 02, 2018, 08:59:21 AMReply #2

Offline taupin121

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 08:59:21 AM »
The Clone Wars cartoon and every part of it is part of the Legends canon.

The difference of timeline's would have been the only good point of the reboot : get ride of TCW and all of its inconsistencies and stupid content from the former universe, with which it is simply incompatible.

If you're ever unsure whether something counts as a legitimate source for the mod, the best place to check is the Essential Guide to Warfare.

The Shadow Collective is not in the EGtW as it was published before the invention of the Shadow Collective (considering how late it was introduced make clear that it can't be played alongside the Republic and the CIS). I have most respect for the work of Dan Wallace and Jason Fry but by now all the retcons of the EGtW seems quite pointless... but still the best reference we have.

February 02, 2018, 09:04:46 AMReply #3

Offline Corey

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 09:04:46 AM »
I meant the series more broadly being included in the EGW. Just because the EGW came out before parts of the cartoon doesn't mean the parts after it aren't part of Legends or out of consideration for the mod. In some of the inconsistencies, previous sources will be prioritized, and in others the cartoon will be prioritized but quite frankly the extent to which the cartoon is inconsistent with previous canon compared to what the timeline was before it seems to get overstated, and almost none of the inconsistencies are even relevant in terms of the scale the mod can actually cover, story-wise.

Star Wars was no stranger to inconsistencies and retcons before the CW, they're something we've had to deal with since the day we started ICW, and we'll handle them basically as we always have. We'll figure out the most reasonable and consistent things we can for the mod, but nothing's perfect, and the Clone Wars has always been one of the least consistent bits of SW even before the cartoon. Really, I probably spend more time responding to comments about people trying to tell us the cartoon isn't part of Legends than I actually spent trying to suss out where we'd need to make adjustments.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 09:26:25 AM by Corey »
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February 02, 2018, 10:38:33 AMReply #4

Offline taupin121

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2018, 10:38:33 AM »
Really, I probably spend more time responding to comments about people trying to tell us the cartoon isn't part of Legends than I actually spent trying to suss out where we'd need to make adjustments.

Sorry to be that one more guy, but I'm sure you understand that a good part of Thrawn's Revenge community are fans of the now Legends timeline which was torn apart by TCW like never before, in number and scale. That's why it's a delicate subject, not to mention the poor quality of the show. For a good part of fans it's good to think TCW is not part of that universe as Lucasfilm/Disney is too lazy and don't care of such details to decide (for them the Legends is dead and they even cut publication rights in some countries).

February 03, 2018, 07:56:35 AMReply #5

Offline AppTRL

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 07:56:35 AM »
Sorry to be that one more guy, but I'm sure you understand that a good part of Thrawn's Revenge community are fans of the now Legends timeline which was torn apart by TCW like never before, in number and scale. That's why it's a delicate subject, not to mention the poor quality of the show. For a good part of fans it's good to think TCW is not part of that universe as Lucasfilm/Disney is too lazy and don't care of such details to decide (for them the Legends is dead and they even cut publication rights in some countries).

Then they should get over themselves.  People who don't like TCW are a very small minority of people (even more so than the people who didn't like The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi). TCW has been one of Lucasfilm's most successful projects.  It single handedly has helped reduce the amount of vitriol the Prequels got on the Internet post-Mr Plinkett reviews.  I like some parts of the old Legends Clone Wars, but as Corey as said, it was always a very inconsistent part of Star Wars even before TCW.  TCW streamlined the timeline to make it accessible to a wide audience. I've seen many examples of people who became fans of Legends material because of TCW. I have no idea why the Legends fanboys chose to make the show their enemy...you seem TCW fans complain about Disney cancelling the show all the time; you think they would realize they have a common adversary in that regard.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 07:59:00 AM by AppTRL »

February 04, 2018, 12:46:39 AMReply #6

Offline lordoflinks

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 12:46:39 AM »
I would agree with you APPTRL, I love the Clone Wars CGI show, and it is why my younger brother is now interested in the expanded universe (I was drawn in by old books), and I like it a lot more than the 2d one.
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February 04, 2018, 05:19:50 AMReply #7

Offline taupin121

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 05:19:50 AM »
TCW has been one of Lucasfilm's most successful projects.

I'm not sure what's your definition of successful, Lucasfilm lost a lot of money with it.

It single handedly has helped reduce the amount of vitriol the Prequels got on the Internet post-Mr Plinkett reviews.

I just can't understand that... The Prequels have far more depht and are far less childish than TCW. It's just that people wanted a cool Anakin and have no interest in story...

I like some parts of the old Legends Clone Wars, but as Corey as said, it was always a very inconsistent part of Star Wars even before TCW.

Yet the timeline could be seen as one consistent story, that was no longer the case with TCW. I suggest to have a look at Nathan P. Butler's Timeline Gold if you don't agree : http://www.starwarsfanworks.com/timeline/download.html

TCW streamlined the timeline to make it accessible to a wide audience. I've seen many examples of people who became fans of Legends material because of TCW.

it is why my younger brother is now interested in the expanded universe

Well the same way the Droids and Ewoks cartoon and movies made this before. I am happy new fans discover the Legends through it but while growing up they need to accept the cons of the show and that it is incompatible with the Legends continuity. If they don't, they still had a new canon made by the Story Group...

I like it a lot more than the 2d one.

In term of length, CW is equivalent of two 3-episodes TCW story arc. Quote me two story arc from TCW that have much depht, story, memorable scene, purposeful screenplay, without the stupid dialogs, characters and so on.

Even the 40 hours of show can hardly have the same amount of good points than the 2 hours of Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars which didn’t treat the audience like children, instead using a sophisticated array of cinematic technique to convey complex themes without being blatant.

February 04, 2018, 11:53:28 AMReply #8

Offline Empeor Cooler

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 11:53:28 AM »
...which didn’t treat the audience like children, instead using a sophisticated array of cinematic technique to convey complex themes without being blatant.
I don't understand your angle here at all.
The show originally came out on Cartoon Network, and no matter what examples one can put forth, the primary and dominant market of that network is young kids and teenagers. It has to be slightly simplified for that market, easy stories and plenty of explosions. Even still though, I 'm not expecting every major star wars story to have the same complexity and depth of a Timothy Zahn novel. TCW hit that perfect in-between in it's later seasons. It was a show that both kids and adults could enjoy. Kids see the clones and the lightsabers and enjoy the action and jokes. Adults watching can understand the bigger picture of the narratives, and big time Star Wars fans can enjoy the fan service the show provided. In that way it was a success.
Lucasfilm lost money during the shows production because it had nothing going on to sustain itself at the time, no movies, no books, no majorly successful video games (which in of itself is a bigger story), the only toys being pushed out were lego based, and generally, there was very little interest in Star Wars as a result.
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February 04, 2018, 01:34:23 PMReply #9

Offline taupin121

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 01:34:23 PM »
The show originally came out on Cartoon Network, and no matter what examples one can put forth, the primary and dominant market of that network is young kids and teenagers.

Compare the Original Movies, the Prequel Movies, the cartoon CW and the animated TCW. The former three can be watched by child and yet the adult can found something for them in it. Each screen of Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars had strenght, not just filler to go up to 20 min.

Adults watching can understand the bigger picture of the narratives, and big time Star Wars fans can enjoy the fan service the show provided. In that way it was a success.

Are you kidding ?
Big picture with battle of no more than 50 participants, Ashoka seeking her lightsaber, Gungan diplomacy, zombies, Godzilla-like, Obi-Wan faking his death or Dooku and ANakin tied together by a band of pirates ?
Mandalorian pacifists is no fan service, it's fan insult... And so on with Vos, Ventress, Barriss, Aura Sing, the Night sisters,...

there was very little interest in Star Wars as a result.

Sure if we live in a world where you need a movie every year (even if the quality suffers from that) to people have interest in something :(


Ahah I noticed I got a -2 today for telling my view of TCW, I feel some get butthurt by a reality check on it :laugh:
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 01:37:31 PM by taupin121 »

February 04, 2018, 03:41:19 PMReply #10

Offline Empeor Cooler

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 03:41:19 PM »
Compare the Original Movies, the Prequel Movies, the cartoon CW and the animated TCW. The former three can be watched by child and yet the adult can found something for them in it. Each screen of Tartakovsky’s Clone Wars had strenght, not just filler to go up to 20 min.

Are you kidding ?
Big picture with battle of no more than 50 participants, Ashoka seeking her lightsaber, Gungan diplomacy, zombies, Godzilla-like, Obi-Wan faking his death or Dooku and ANakin tied together by a band of pirates ?
Mandalorian pacifists is no fan service, it's fan insult... And so on with Vos, Ventress, Barriss, Aura Sing, the Night sisters,...

Sure if we live in a world where you need a movie every year (even if the quality suffers from that) to people have interest in something :(


Ahah I noticed I got a -2 today for telling my view of TCW, I feel some get butthurt by a reality check on it :laugh:
-What constitutes as filler to you? I can argue that both cartoons are entirely filler because neither advances the bigger picture set up by episode 2 and pays of in episode 3.
-The show didn't really have the budget to portray massive battles, and by no way am I trying to come off as mean or offensive, but you sound like someone who hate change, it's different so I don't like it. Yes, some things were bad, but ultimately, the new direction taken on these old concepts ultimately makes them more interesting in the long run. (Bariss was the bare minimum of a character in legends, I'm amazed that what was essentially a background character got so much attention in the show.) Also, you can't list want you can consider to be "disrespectful changes" and ignore the storylines that are universally agreed upon to be excellent additions to the lore because of the new depth they provide to things like the clone troopers, Maul, and the Force.
-Movies drive merchandise, not saying there needs to be a new movie every year, but some sense of direction for the material. Star Wars was dying in the early 90's, it wasn't for The Thrawn Trilogy renewing people's interest in the franchise, its very likely that other material that came out after and before the special edition release would not have been made. The prequels then renewed a common interest in Star Wars, and after they were done, the fall off of general interest in Star Wars was even quicker, if anything, before disney bought out Lucas, TCW kept Star Wars relevant.
-It suck that you're getting negative karma for speaking your mind. I don't really see your POV, but I can respect it. As someone who writes argumentative almost everyday, here's what I think. You need to make your arguments stronger, "filler" all by itself doesn't describe anything and it sounds petty, and just listing off things you didn't like with no details also doesn't help strengthen your opinion. I don't think you're getting hate because of you're opinion, but because you don't make a strong enough argument for it and as a result you come off as childish.
"You should become a politician." "I'm already a banker, and that's much more vile."- Pors Tonith to Count Dooku

February 04, 2018, 08:52:05 PMReply #11

Offline Corey

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 08:52:05 PM »
There's no reason for some of the personal insults I've seen in some of these posts. Discussion is fine, but if the personal attacks continue, I'll have to lock this thread.

« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 06:12:02 AM by Corey »
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February 05, 2018, 06:12:59 AMReply #12

Offline Corey

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 06:12:59 AM »
I'm trying to leave the thread open here, but if I have to keep deleting comments that are responding to and continuing the tone that I asked to stop, I will lock it.
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February 05, 2018, 06:37:20 AMReply #13

Offline kucsidave

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 06:37:20 AM »
One thing here If I can have a saying, and this is for something a bit back.
I don't understand your angle here at all.
The show originally came out on Cartoon Network, and no matter what examples one can put forth, the primary and dominant market of that network is young kids and teenagers. It has to be slightly simplified for that market, easy stories and plenty of explosions. Even still though, I 'm not expecting every major star wars story to have the same complexity and depth of a Timothy Zahn novel. TCW hit that perfect in-between in it's later seasons. It was a show that both kids and adults could enjoy. Kids see the clones and the lightsabers and enjoy the action and jokes. Adults watching can understand the bigger picture of the narratives, and big time Star Wars fans can enjoy the fan service the show provided. In that way it was a success.
I DON'T think that a show has to be dummed down and have lots of explosions because it is a kids show.
Kids are not dumb, they are inexperienced, and I actually think that a cartoon that is fun, but have a deeper side is actually great. Just look at Gravity Falls for example.
My little sister got me into GF and I had a blast from it, and I loved to discuss the things behind it with both my sis and my friends whom I got into watching the show.
And that's why I started talking about philosophy and analysis with my sister who was about nothing but girly stuff before. Never underestimate the power of a well written cartoon that doesn't treat it's fans as dumb, but as intelligent.
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
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February 05, 2018, 11:38:23 AMReply #14

Offline Empeor Cooler

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 11:38:23 AM »
One thing here If I can have a saying, and this is for something a bit back.I DON'T think that a show has to be dummed down and have lots of explosions because it is a kids show.
Kids are not dumb, they are inexperienced, and I actually think that a cartoon that is fun, but have a deeper side is actually great. Just look at Gravity Falls for example.
My little sister got me into GF and I had a blast from it, and I loved to discuss the things behind it with both my sis and my friends whom I got into watching the show.
And that's why I started talking about philosophy and analysis with my sister who was about nothing but girly stuff before. Never underestimate the power of a well written cartoon that doesn't treat it's fans as dumb, but as intelligent.
Oh don't get me wrong, I totally agree with you, but I was trying to give Taupin a reasonable explanation for why the show seemed so simple, at least, from his perspective. My favorite show that's on right now is Steven Universe, well, "on" is kind of pushing it... whatever, that show has some very complex themes to it. CN isn't like the Disney channel, funnily enough, (cause we're talking about Star Wars,) cartoons that follow a consistent timeline or a bigger picture just seem to suffer under Cartoon Network and Nickelodeon, they don't air reruns of shows like that because they think the people watching it would be confused if they haven't watched the whole series, hence why the easy cash cows like TTG and Spongebob are the only thing that ever seems to air on either channel now and days and why you'll be pressed to find airings of Adventure Time or Steven Universe on CN. (Granted, even older episodes of Spongebob still have clever enough writing in them for adults to enjoy.) I think this was something that the production team was aware of and is why the first few seasons of TCW had such simple and safe content.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 11:44:20 AM by Empeor Cooler »
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February 05, 2018, 12:48:36 PMReply #15

Offline kucsidave

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2018, 12:48:36 PM »
ah, sorry for the misunderstanding then. I get it like this.
Language barriers. XD
I admit it though that I liked the Clone Wars cartoons as well(both 2d and 3d). The 2d was something I watched as a kid, so it had that going for it next to a solid story and characters. I felt grievous was his best there.
I haven't watched TCW until recently, but I kinda liked it. Granted I went into it by kniowing that it didn't really care about much established lore before it, so I kinda took the whole thing to an experimental level and considered it an alt-star wars universe.
You know, like what if russia never went communist and such.
In this what if Anakin got a Padawan, and this makes it absolutely enjoyable.
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

February 05, 2018, 02:32:58 PMReply #16

Offline Empeor Cooler

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2018, 02:32:58 PM »
ah, sorry for the misunderstanding then. I get it like this.
Language barriers. XD
I admit it though that I liked the Clone Wars cartoons as well(both 2d and 3d). The 2d was something I watched as a kid, so it had that going for it next to a solid story and characters. I felt grievous was his best there.
I haven't watched TCW until recently, but I kinda liked it. Granted I went into it by kniowing that it didn't really care about much established lore before it, so I kinda took the whole thing to an experimental level and considered it an alt-star wars universe.
You know, like what if russia never went communist and such.
In this what if Anakin got a Padawan, and this makes it absolutely enjoyable.
Thats kind of how I treated the 3d show as well. I thought giving pre-Vader Anakin a padawan was kind of a "jumping the shark moment", but Ashoka's execution ended up being pretty good all things considered. Nothing will ever touch what Genndy T. put out in 2003 though, that little show was so well directed and animated.
"You should become a politician." "I'm already a banker, and that's much more vile."- Pors Tonith to Count Dooku

February 05, 2018, 04:24:44 PMReply #17

Offline kucsidave

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Re: 2008 Clone Wars Cartoon
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2018, 04:24:44 PM »
soo much agreed
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

 

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