Off Topic > Star Wars Discussion
The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
Pali:
So, since we should have somewhere that we can discuss the newest entry to the saga openly, I figured I'd get the ball rolling. I seem to be in somewhat of a minority opinion here in that I very much enjoyed the new movie, and I figured I'd break down why to get things started. So, in my opinion based on a single viewing (future viewings may alter these opinions)...
The great:
-The entire scene with Snoke, Rey, Ren, and the Red Guards from start to finish
-Luke projecting himself to the salt planet
-Yoda
-The hyperspace ram - one of the most beautiful shots in all of Star Wars
-Rey and Ren being connected and their conversations
-Poe prank calling Hux was fucking AWESOME
-The acting of all the main characters - everyone gave their A-game here and it showed
-FUCKING SHIELDS ON SHIPS EXIST AND WE SEE THEM!
The good:
-Finn's suicide charge as he finally finds something he can willingly devote himself to (alongside the utter failure of the falling-apart speeders vs top-line military vehicles) - though I'm torn on whether or not I think he should've been allowed to die trying, as that would've been a very powerful moment but would also have left the character feeling somewhat short-changed in my mind; if he'd died there I know I'd have come out having wanted more of him and disappointed (not sad, disappointed) that there wouldn't be, and I think that'd have been the wrong last feeling to leave me with regarding him
-Poe's arc as he learns that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
-Rose was adorable
-Chewie and the porgies (or whatever they're called) was hilarious and adorable
-Luke's arc as Rey and Yoda remind him that utter failure isn't always the end
-Leia showing she's got some Force tricks up her sleeves too
-Rey coming to define her own place in things rather than still asking for someone else to tell her what it is, and accepting the mantle of a new sort of post-Jedi force user (though this could've been a bit better handled, I still really liked how she was done here, particularly the apparent fact that her parents were nobodies; I hated all theories that she was the child of someone super important, and I really hope they don't backtrack on this one in Ep. IX because not everything has to be about the fucking Skywalkers)
-Hux starting to draw his blaster before Ren wakes up and clearly resisting Ren assuming the Supreme Leader mantle - lots of ground to grow there in Ep. IX
-I really liked that Del Toro's character was NOT a scoundrel-with-a-heart-of-gold; he was just a scoundrel, and had the movie tried to redeem him in the short time we had with him it would've felt forced. Han coming back after everything in ANH worked - Del Toro's character turning good would not have
The meh, could be better:
-The Rose-Finn romance didn't feel earned, but then again, not everyone expresses affection the same way, and Rose definitely geeked out enough on meeting Finn and showed enough social anxiety issues that I can somewhat buy a fangirl thinking she's in love with a personal hero she finally spends some time with
-Snoke could've used a fair bit more characterization before being killed off, but I suspect he was always intended as a red herring of sorts, and that the whole point of the character was to lead us to expect a Vader-turning-on-the-Emperor moment of redemption for Kylo Ren; instead we got a dark side apprentice legitimately killing his master to seize the mantle rather than to change sides - and in truth, it's not like the original trilogy gave us any deep character work for the Emperor either
-The casino planet storyline I actually didn't mind all that much, but it didn't mesh with the rest of the film well, and what it achieved I think could've been achieved through other means. It got Rose and Finn on the Mega SD so they could participate in the climax, it gave them an adventure together so the Rose-Finn pairing didn't feel entirely fake, and it built on the kind of nuanced look at the galactic wars introduced during the prequels and Clone Wars series: that there are people who benefit greatly from this struggle without sharing any of the risks, and that want the wars to never end because they keep lining the pockets of profiteers, and that the wars don't just happen purely because ideologically-opposed beings can't find a middle-ground. Instead, they often happen in no small part because many have a vested interest in keeping the fighting happening. This is good stuff, but I don't think it was handled as well as it could have been by any stretch, and this was the only part of the movie that I felt dragged.
-Much as I liked the hyperspace ram, it should've been Ackbar as the admiral in charge of the suicide run, not some lady I'd never seen before
-BB-8 felt somewhat underutilized to me - I enjoyed every moment with him still, but he didn't quite live up to the charm he had in TFA
-I understand the point of the end scene with the kid on the planet symbolizing a new Rose, a new hope, a new rebellion/resistance to the harshness of the galaxy, but it still felt somewhat tacked on to me
The bad:
-The bomber run against the dreadnought - despite what many will think, yes, a ship under powered flight above a planet CAN just drop bombs that way assuming that down for the bomber points close-to-directly at the planet (once detached from the ship the bombs will still be accelerated "down" by gravity while the ship's own acceleration will keep it on a "straight" path, leaving the bombs to "fall" relative to the ship), but it felt wrong nonetheless and I'd have greatly preferred it to feel more like a battle in space without gravity playing any apparent role
-Leia surviving being blown out into space. Yes, this contradicts one of my goods above, but I think showing Leia still had significant Force powers could have been achieved without squandering this PERFECT way to kill the character - Kylo deciding not to kill her and then her dying anyway because of an attack he's a part of would have been a wonderful thing for him, and the audience, to go through. There's a bit of hindsight at play here, as I suspect she was intended to die in Ep. IX and reality intervened, but damn it that would've been a great send-off
-edit: One more bad: Phasma. There was some utility in terms of Finn's arc to have him face off against her, but it fell flat due to her lack of any characterization beyond "female loyal stormtrooper with mirrored armor". The fight gave Finn an okay moment of personal victory against a symbol of the group that brainwashed and abused him, but it felt by-the-numbers; Finn's suicide charge did a far better job of making me feel that he'd truly devoted himself to defeating the First Order, not just escaping it, without once again failing to properly utilize a potentially badass minor villain who already was misused in the previous film. If they bother to bring her back in Ep IX, they really need to do a far better job of it or Phasma will never feel like anything beyond Star Wars trying to monetize Brienne of Tarth's awesomeness without having earned the right to do so.
The ugly:
.........................................yeah, I got nothing for this category
The movie is by no means perfect, but I had a great time overall, with the casino planet being the only significant part that felt dragged-out and truly unnecessary to me. Its apparent purposes were to connect Finn and Rose, which it didn't really succeed at, to introduce a reason for Finn to question the rationale behind the Resistance before he truly decides to devote himself to it anyways (which again, it didn't quite succeed at), and to get Finn and Rose onto the Mega SD, which could've been done a bajillion other ways without half the hoops to jump through. But Del Toro was fun to see, and I really liked that he wasn't a "hidden good guy" character but instead was quite sincerely a mercenary for hire, and I liked Rose and Finn so I didn't mind joining them for a quick if somewhat unnecessary and absurd adventure.
turtle225:
Welp, here's my take.
The good:
-The Snoke/Rey/Ren/Guards scene yes, I agree. But it leaves us with some problems I'll get to. It was also too blatantly a rip on episode 6.
-The acting.
-Shields on ships but only sometimes? Poe has no problems blowing up a dozen guns at the start with only his lasers.
-Chewie and the porgies was the only humor I liked.
-R2D2 and Luke's scene.
-Rey's parents are nobody, it isn't cliché and I like it. I'm actually surprised by how many people are upset about this.
-Despite how pointless Finn is in this movie, he is the only of the main three that I liked and he is the only one who developed well.
-Shooting Luke with the At-At's instead of being cliché and fighting him one on one.
-Luke's line about how Rey expects him to defeat the First Order by himself with a laser sword.
The bad:
-Poe prank calling Hux. It you want to be positive it makes Poe look clever. If you want to be negative it makes a joke of Hux, you know, a major villain we are supposed to be afraid of.
-Poe can fight a dreadnought by himself. A dreadnought only has 10 lasers apparently and no shields. It gets destroyed by one bomber.
-In 25 years, the resistance/rebellion/republic (who even knows) has replaced their Y-Wings and B-Wings with hot air balloons and somehow expect to ever destroy anything.
-Leia tells Poe not to attack the Dreadnought and fall back. Poe disagrees and the entire fighter/bomber fleet follows him? Shouldn't they be listening to Leia or is everybody as trigger happy/insubordinate as Poe?
-The fighter fleet is too cock-eyed and smug prior to the engagement on what is an insubordinate suicide run. Compare to episode 4 which is much more serious.
-The final bomber somehow survives for 100 years when the rest of the fleet was destroyed so easily. Rose's sister thing was far too drawn out.
-Hyperspace tracking is new technology? Since when? The books established that you can make educated guesses on where people are going when they hyperspace out based on their vector and astronomy.
-Finn knows where the tracker is because he used to mop the decks? When exactly because I thought he was mopping Star Killer base. I guess janitors get around to all of the new tech. Snoke doesn't even apparently know about the tracker.
-The rebel flagship powers rear shields but leaves the bridge exposed when they are under fighter attack? Is Ackbar that stupid? No.
-The First Order blows up the abandoned rebel ships instead of taking the free hardware. Only explanation is that they are afraid of traps but everybody in this movie is so dumb that they would never do that.
-Kylo/Rey's force connection, Luke's force projection, Yoda showing up. This is a nitpick from the books, these things should not be possible.
-What happened to the Knights of Ren? Why was Kylo obsessed with Vader in 7? Johnson doesn't know or seem to care.
-How were they planning on destroying the battering ram/cannon with speeders that apparently don't even have guns?
-Negating Finn's heroic sacrifice. Either let him do it or don't have the scene at all. They wanted to have their cake and eat it too and it made the whole thing feel extremely contrived. It also weakens Poe's development because he orders the team to pull back because it won't work, yet Finn makes it through anyway. Then Finn and Rose kiss in front of all of the At-At's and Finn drags her back without getting captured?
-The giant door is the only way into the resistance bunker... right? Oh wait there are entrances from the trenches that the soldiers are fighting from.
-Why is their a land assault on the bunker? "No prisoners, kill them all." They opened the movie by bombarding the rebel base from orbit, why not do that here? What is even the point of the soldiers in the trenches? They are literally just fodder with no chance to doing damage to anything.
-Rose's character. Sorry, I didn't like her and she felt very forced. She also falls in love with Finn in like eight hours.
-Snoke is dead. As much as I liked the scene in the moment it really leaves 9 in a bad place. Kylo the brat is now the supreme ruler and main villain? Really lame. He gets tricked by Kylo even though he KNEW that Kylo was conflicted. I would have liked an epic battle with Kylo/Rey vs Snoke but rip that dream. Snoke had all this build up to be super strong and yet he dies like a ***** before he does anything or we learn anything about him. It is a waste on par with Darth Maul.
-NO WORLD BUILDING: I'm really upset about this. At the end of 7, the first order takes a huge blow with the loss of Star Killer base and the Republic loses their capital, but in 8 apparently the resistance is on the brink of defeat and the First Order controls the galaxy? This was a major problem in 7 and it persists. What is the First Order, where did it come from? Who is Snoke? Why is the Republic/Rebellion/Resistance/Whatever still fighting for control of the galaxy? What the bloody heck happened in the last 25 years?
-Leia: "We have all that we need here" Because apparently the resistance didn't need those 1000s of people that probably died over the course of the movie. A dozen people in the Falcon will suffice.
-No autopilot function? Holdo and others have to stay behind and sacrifice themselves because apparently they forgot how autopilot works. I do like your idea of Ackbar doing the suicide run though, that would have been great.
-Hyperspace ram destroys the entire First Order Fleet. No.
-Turbolaser shots picking off small transport ships with perfect accuracy.
-Rey gets basically no training from Luke, yet she has no problem fighting the red guards (who are definitely trained) or lifting a bunch of rocks. She is as much of a Mary Sue in this movie as the last.
-BB8 the rolling deus ex machina can do anything. Heroes are in a bind? No problem BB8 will show up and save the day. Leia was right "we have all we need here." As long as they have BB8 how can they lose?
-Weak Villains: Snoke is built up but then wasted, Phasma is totally wasted. Kylo is a whiney brat. Hux is made out as a joke. The Red Guards are more interesting than these guys.
-Themes beaten over the head. Minor nitpick I guess, but it is nice when they are more subtle.
The ugly:
-Idiot Plot (A plot that occurs because character(s) are idiots): The First Order can't catch the rebel ships... really? They can't microjump forward (Poe just did this earlier)? Or how about you send a bunch of fighters because you know, Kylo singlehandedly wiped out the hangers, bridge, and the entire rebel fighter fleet. Sure you might lose a few fighters but since when has the empire cared?
-The resistance ships have no fuel... so what was their plan? They didn't even have enough fuel to reach the planet they were going for regardless of the First Order showing up.
-Idiot Plot: Holdo won't tell Poe the plan. WHY? Because we need the movie to last an hour longer. As such we get both Cantobight and a mutiny. These things would not have happened if Holdo just tells Poe the plan, but the writers needed Finn and Poe to have something to do because literally nothing is happening in the plot they wrote.
-Cantobight and the master code breaker. This is a major wasted subplot and waste of time. I don't like the idea of there being a "master code breaker" to begin with. The entire time on Cantobight was painful and they beat us over the head with their theme here. In the end the plan fails anyway soo great work team?
-Plot Hole: hyperspace=teleportation as far as time is concerned. This was a problem in 7 and R1 also. The new writers don't seem to understand that hyperspace travel takes TIME. The entire chase scene is about 6 to 8 hours yet Finn has time to fly to Cantobight, spend a bunch of time there and fly back? Rey can show up at the end from Luke's oasis?
-Plot Hole: Rey is on the island communicating with Kylo while the rebel fleet is being chased. The chase is 6 to 8 hours but we see multiple day/night cycles for Rey on the island. The only explanation is that Luke's planet has a stupid fast day/night cycle but that is convoluted.
-Leia: Cringe worthy. She should have died on the bridge. Also Poe lets her back into the ship and somehow they don't all get sucked out into vacuum? There was no airlock there.
-LUKE: Oh God Luke. Ruined. Leaves a map behind in 7 (main plot driver of 7) but then when Rey finds him he just tells her to shove off? If he went to the planet to die then why the heck did he leave behind a map? I couldn't buy into his desire to end the Jedi or his overall withdrawal because it is so fundamentally against his character. Even Mark Hamill has openly declared that he disagreed with Johnson's take on the character. This isn't the Luke we knew. They wanted him to be just like Yoda was in episode 5. His behavior and character are so wrong.
-Luke considers killing Kylo because he is showing dark side tendencies. NO.
-Luke's death. We all knew he would die, but I at least wanted it to be awesome. Instead he dies because he was old and used too much energy or something. I would have liked it a lot better if he died in the At-At's blasts AND THEN he tricked Kylo by lingering as a force ghost to buy the others more time.
I probably forgot some stuff and all of that is disorganized so sorry. But really I think a lot of the problems arise because the writers wanted to have and eat their cake.
-Kill Leia? No she's fine.
-Kill Finn? No we gotta save him.
-Luke is a hero? Yes but he isn't there and dies anyway.
-Luke is grumpy old man and won't train Rey? But Rey is apparently way stronger anyway.
-Kylo is conflicted? Yea but he's still apparently going to evil just cause. We still don't even know why he is evil. Did Han refuse to give him cookies when he was kid?
It seems like the writers weren't sure how to make the main characters relevant.
-The main plot is that the resistance is fleeing from the First Order. We use that as our baseline, and are basically stuck with this 8 hour window.
-Poe needs something to do... how about a mutiny? That's dramatic.
-Finn needs something to do... and a love triangle apparently, how about a convoluted subplot?
Rather than build a main plot that gives each hero something to do it was more like our heroes were stuck in a plot with nothing to do and they had to shoehorn in stuff to keep them relevant.
And finally a bunch of problems arise because of the disconnect between Abrams and Johnson. I didn't like 7 either but I thought if 8 built upon it then it would make it better. But clearly Johnson and Abrams are not on the same page. The New Jedi Order series is written by over 12 different people and yet all of those books connect and flow better than just two movies with different directors. I don't like Abrams either but I honestly think it would have been better with him at the helm. At least he would have built off of his own foundation. Probably.
Pali:
Not going to go through point by point, but I do have a few comments regarding your criticisms.
First, I was never on the "Rey is a Mary Sue" bandwagon - if she is, then so was Luke in ANH, so was Anakin in the prequels, and so were the Solo children and dozens of other Force-sensitives in the EU. People being innately gifted because of Force powers, or manifesting powers without consciously trying to or without any training, is not something new in Star Wars stories.
Second, some technical bits: small ships being able to penetrate shields and hit the hull also has plenty of precedents - that's how X-wings could shoot the Death Star, how Han killed Zsinj. This ability isn't consistently presented, but it's not new. Bombers following a cocky fighter pilot against orders also isn't new - that's how Corran Horn and Warden Squadron bagged a Lancer in the first Rogue Squadron book. The orbital bombardments the movie opened with were carried out by the dreadnought Poe helped destroy, which is why they couldn't be done at the end. The hyperspace ram didn't destroy the whole fleet, just the SSD and ships behind it that were hit by debris moving at close to light speed; ships remained to launch the land attack. Autopilot never works during dramatic moments in any franchise. Small or not, transports moving on a near-straight line course are easy targets. Hyperspace tracking doesn't appear anywhere in the EU that I can recall without having a tracking device on the ship being tracked - projecting courses and making educated guesses, yes, but the tracking here was a lot more precise and done without a bug on the tracked ship; regardless, it was very much new as far as the movies go, as getting into hyperspace in the movies had always been an escape.
Third, a lot of your criticisms can be equally applied to the original trilogy. Where were the Empire's origins explained, or the Rebellion's, or the Emperor's past (or NAME even)? New Force abilities are shown in every movie, why are the ones here a problem? The Death Star can't just microjump around Yavin for a clear shot? Travel times don't exist there either - Tatooine to Alderaan seems to take about ten minutes, Hoth to Bespin without a hyperdrive is fast enough that Fett has to tell the Empire to get there first rather than catch the Falcon in an open sublight intersystem transit that should take decades. How long was Luke on Dagobah, and how does the time he spent training with Yoda match up to the seeming no time at all it takes the Falcon to make it to Cloud City?
Liking or disliking character arcs or portrayals is largely subjective, so I don't see much point in going into depth on them - you hated Luke's characterization and arc, I enjoyed both greatly. You saw the fight as a rip-off of 6, I saw it as an intentional parallel and reversal of 6. Holdo not explaining things to Poe made sense to me: you don't spread need-to-know information to people who don't need-to-know, especially when you're being tracked by means you don't understand (which could include a traitor or security leak of some sort), and there isn't a military on the planet (edit: meaning real life Earth) that allows a subordinate to demand explanations of orders the way Poe did.
Grand Admiral Rufaan Tigellinus:
Since I did not think that TLJ was a completely worthless film, I wouldn't bash it as heavily as Turtle225 did, even though he did make a few points with which I agree. There were indeed a lot of strengths in it as a film, the problem is, in my opinion, that TLJ does not work as a Star Wars film specifically. For me, there are a lot of flaws and obvious mistakes in it which I can more or less ignore. Such as Luke disappearing along with his prosthetic hand, which should have remained on the ground where he vanished (this actually hints on another thing to which I'll come back later), Leia entering the "Raddus" where there is no airlock, the Resistance fleet not having enough fuel to get to Crait, regardless of the First Order's pursuit (two points which Turtle225 has pointed out in his post), ships apparently going at exactly the same speed during the chase, and despite the presence of hundreds of TIE Fighters at the First Order's disposal, which were incredibly effective the one time they utilized their fighter superiority, this tactic is abandoned altogether by the First Order afterwards, for reasons unknown. All of these errors are acceptable, because as Pali rightfully points out, most Star Wars films have similar errors, including those from the original trilogy.
Here, however, are several things that I do have trouble with, and those are the things that ruined this movie as part of the Star Wars universe and killed this sequel trilogy for me for good:
1. Snoke mentions Vader as someone for Kylo Ren to aspire to, which is idiotic, because for a Dark Side adept - Vader is the ultimate traitor and false idol. He didn't just kill Palpatine, he RETURNED TO THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE AND SAVED HIS SON. This wasn't an egotistical act, to kill your master and usurp his power, which is indeed how Sith have operated for centuries, and that's how the cycle of the Order of Two works - when the apprentice is powerful enough to betray and kill his master he does so, himself becoming the master and taking a new apprentice, thus continuing the cycle (Pali himself seems to be aware of this, by pointing out that Snoke's killing was legitimate, and mentions Vader, but for some reason is unfazed at the idiocy of Snoke comparing his apprentice to Vader openly three times in the film, clearly admiring Vader). Vader killed Palpatine only to save Luke, and by doing this he also essentially killed himself by exposing himself to Palpatine's force lightning. It's an altruistic gesture, one of ultimate sacrifice and love towards your family member. Something a true Sith will never forgive or forget. If I remember correctly, Mara Jade only ever mentions Vader in Heir to the Empire as a traitor (she was never a Sith, just a Dark Side user at the time, but that's the only concrete example of how Vader was remembered by Dark Side users post-RofJ that comes to mind right now). Again, Vader being Kylo's grandfather does indeed potentially inherit him with some Dark Side potential, possibly, I am not disputing that. Even Kylo idolizing his Sith relative himself is one thing, but his master (at the time) Snoke referring to Kylo as "a new Vader" is just insultingly stupid and makes no fucking sense whatsoever in the context of what the Dark Side of the Force represents in general. It just goes against the basic concepts of this universe, and you don't have to even be aware of the EU to be able to point this out.
2. The handling of Luke Skywalker in the film. As brilliant as Mark Hamill was in TLJ, the ultimate fate of his character in it has disappointed me to no end. Whether or nor he is portrayed as a depressed and hopeless former Jedi master isn't even the point of great concern for me, because I understood that regardless of this he will eventually take part in the action one way or the other, which to some extent he did. So I will only talk about his demise in the film, and not even in the context of the universe. It appears that the decision to kill him off was made in the last possible moment, which partially explains the vanishing of his prosthetic hand alongside him (it was obviously easier to just remove him digitally sitting on that rock this way, without adding an extra scene of his prosthetic hand clunking to the ground). It also appears that Mark Hamill himself wasn't told the fate of his character, and he only found out that he actually dies at the end at the premiere of the film, and if true, this is an absolutely horrible treatment of him. I'm not even sure Rian Johnson himself wished to kill off Luke, and rumor has it that it was Kathleen Kennedy who did. Different people might react to Luke's passing in this film differently, but for me personally this means zero excitement before the next film. The one reason I was excited to see TFA was the see Luke, Han and Leia again. After Han's death in TFA, and Luke's almost complete absence in it, and after being greatly disappointed and let down by every new character in the film, pretty much the only reasons for my slight excitement for TLJ was to see Leia and hopefully Luke this time. It happened, but now we know that neither of the three main characters from the original trilogy will be playing a substantial part in Episode 9 due to both the events of TLJ and real life intervening in a tragic way. We might get Leia's death scene through CGI and Luke being there as a force ghost, but for me this isn't enough to incite any excitement for Episode 9. I really have no reason to see that movie in theaters when it comes out, even though being a Star Wars fan I probably still will. Still, I already know that there would be nothing for me in that film, and it's depressing, to be honest.
And you know what, that's it. Those are the major issues I had in this film which made me question Disney's understanding of this franchise even further. Everything else in it was either good, or not surprising. The new main characters in the film did not impress me, or seem believable and/or compelling even in TFA, so nothing that happened to them was really of any interest to me anyway. This is a subjective thing though, so I will not attribute it to my overall view of the film, I understand that Rian Johnson had no choice but to work with these pathetic characters the great Jeffrey Jacob Abrams has written for TFA, so I will never put him to blame for them not working for me here as well as in TFA. This is just the stench that TFA has carried onto TLJ, and it was to be expected, with TLJ being its sequel. Some of Johnson's writing choices however I did find a bit weird, with Poe essentially being an unassuming minor villain of the film. If this sequel trilogy had any pretenses of even in-universe realism or logicality, Poe should be court-martialed immediately at the start of Episode 9 for all the Resistance enlisted personnel deaths he singlehandedly caused in this film (leading both the successful, but suicidal for everyone bar himself bomber attack on the dreadnought, and the failed speeder attack on the walkers, during which every participant except Finn, Rose and Poe himself is killed), as well as his coup attempt. The Canto Bight plot line in the film has already been critisized so heavily by even the few people who loved the film, so I won't jump on the bandwagon here, and funnily enough I also didn't have as much of a problem with it (mainly because I don't care for the new characters of this sequel trilogy anyway, and don't mind films with slower pace, and also due to the addition of the surprisingly interesting character of DJ, who despite being essentially just a selfish version of Han Solo works for me, and seems almost like the only character in the film who understands how the universe is supposed to work). The way how even the badly written characters in TFA are getting even worse in TLJ was painful to be forced to see again. Hux is even more of a caricature of an Imperial villain, although to me it seems like Rian Johnson just doesn't know what better use to make of someone as one-dimensional in the first place. Neither does he seem to know how to handle Phasma, but considering how absolutely pathetic that character is to begin with, I feel like almost praising Johnson for just throwing her out in the garbage bin disgracefully the way he did. That really was the only way for her to go, there's nothing good to be done with something that thinly written to begin with. In the universe where so many incredible Imperial villains exist (Thrawn, Pellaeon (not even a villain, but a great fucking character, and an Imperial), Isard, Daala, Zsinj, Kaine, Delvardus, Harrsk, the Teradocs, etc.) it's painful to be subjected to someone as humorously amateurish, pathetically unintimidating and downright stupid as Hux and Phasma. Speaking of humor, the humor in the film was incredibly over-the-top, and the only jokes that worked for me were the ones between Luke and Rey (and I didn't mind Luke wiping his shoulder smugly after the walkers scene and him throwing the lightsaber over his shoulder in the beginning), and every scene with the porgs, who somehow landed well with me, possibly because I immediately realized that they are non-CGI, but actually puppets, which was a nice reference to the original trilogy, as well as the puppet Yoda, btw. I did, however, expect the overload of humor after TFA, and also was warned about it before the film by some friends, so it didn't of course come as a surprise. And since I will be watching this movie in the theater again, I will actually try to relax and pretend to be a normie Star Wars fan, which won't be difficult considering how hard it is to take almost anything in this film seriously to begin with. But I will try to replace my sarcastic smile with a genuine (fake) one. I'll try to trick myself, is what I'm saying. That's the length one has to go to enjoy this film as a Star Wars fan.
A lot of things that I dislike about the film are very subjective to me, and do not contribute to the overall standing of the film. Such as the disinteristing characters of Rey, Kylo Ren, Finn, Poe Dameron, Snoke, etc. They were present in TFA, and their presence in this film was obvious, so it's not like anything could be done in this regard for me. Rian Johnson does, however, prove to be a better writer (as if there was ever a question, really, but still) than JJA, with some new characters in this film being an improvement over those introduced in TFA. Namely Amilyn Holdo and DJ, but I found Rose to be quite charming as well. Kylo Ren and Finn are also developed better here than in TFA, but it's difficult for me to call this a drastic improvement, since the characters are still boring, and there's simply not much Rian could have done to remedy that. And whatever he does, Kylo is just not an intimidating villain to me, especially in the universe where Jacen Solo exists. Finn is ok, but he was never a particularly interesting character to start with. Even Johnson seems to realize his uselessness by relegating him to the least important storyline of the film. As for Rey being just a Mary Sue, I agree with Pali that it's no different in its essence to Luke and Anakin, but it's still disappointing to me that nothing is done to change this narrative flaw so apparent in all of Star Wars - having an all-powerful protagonist for no apparent reason. Surely it can be done, no? Instead we have just gotten a female version of that boring premise. Doesn't make it better or more interesting though, does it? But again, this issue was apparent in TFA, so it's just me repeating myself again. However, I don't remember ever reviewing TFA, so maybe this opinion had to be voiced here.
Considering all of the rules and laws of this new simple and predictable Star Wars universe laid down by TFA, I knew that it's not quite possible for me to love TLJ wholeheartedly or even to take it in any way seriously, so I'm never going to say that I expected greatness from it. Hell no, I just wanted to have a good time as a Star Wars fan, even being ready to ignore the one-dimensional nature of every character from TFA, and the general unoriginality of the whole thing. I just didn't anticipate being spat in the face by how they handled Luke, and by few universe-breaking things that would never have happened even in the prequel films or if Lucas was doing this trilogy (or a real Star Wars fan who knows his shit), such as Vader all of a sudden being a hero in the eyes of Dark Side users post-Endor, and some other nitpicky "Star Wars EU nerd" things, which I have forgotten about when I was writing about everything in-depth above, so I won't go heavily into it now, because it really wouldn't be something of concern for people who enjoyed the film anyway (we do see shields working in this film, but HOW they work is completely fucking illogical, regardless of the power of turbolaser fire withstanded by the shields, no fucking shield can survive 18 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS FIRE UPON IT, the shield generator will just drain, and will never be able to keep recharging for this long, but whatever). It really doesn't change anything.
If you enjoyed the film, then I'm happy for you, and I will not advise not to go see it to someone who hasn't, or anything. If you are able to not think of it as a Star Wars film while you're watching it, or if you're not much of a Star Wars fan to begin with, then I guess it's a fine sci-fi action film, with several surprising twists. It's an average film at best, but not nearly as stupid and unoriginal in its premise as TFA, even though it shares the same boring characters, which in itself is something that potentially ruins any future Episode with these guys in them. I can repeat my frustration at that Rian Johnson wasn't hired to write and direct TFA, because he would undoubtedly do a better job than the talentless fuck who I don't even want to mention by name at not only writing the first film in the new trilogy, but also at building the world and the characters for future installments. Instead, anyone who has ever dared to take this universe seriously was already doomed to suffer through these films, created by people who obviously never were fans of this thing, I don't care what the fuck JJ says, his work speaks for itself. All I can say, is that TLJ was less of a torture for a Star Wars fan than TFA was. If this is a compliment from me, it's a lukewarm one.
Having said that, I realize that we will never get anything better from the people running the show now. And since my journey to becoming a Star Wars fan (and discovering EU) started with the films, I still am unable, unfortunately, to completely ignore their existence. So I will try to watch TLJ in the cinema again, even though that'll require me to dumb myself down and pretend like I've never read an EU novel. Or better yet, not consider it being Star Wars at all. It all really feels more like an unofficial rip-off of it, with no soul of the original remaining. But sadly, that's all we are ever going to get, and fighting it is not a war we can win. So I'll give it another shot, by trying to adjust myself into it. Just because it's winter-time, the holidays, the Christmas spirit, or whatever it is, and I'm sad at not being able to enjoy myself watching a film that's supposedly a part of a franchise I was once a fan of. :-\
Pali:
--- Quote from: Major Grodin Tierce on December 21, 2017, 06:07:41 AM ---Such as Luke disappearing along with his prosthetic hand, which should have remained on the ground where he vanished
--- End quote ---
Heh, this didn't occur to me at all, good catch. I don't know that it definitely counts as an issue, as it's not like we have strong rules regarding Force ghosting and how the body becomes one with the Force - perhaps at that point he'd accepted the arm sufficiently that, so far as the Force within him was concerned, it was a part of him (and the rules that mechanicals don't feel the Force exist purely in books, not the movies) - but that's definitely a good nitpick.
--- Quote ---1. Snoke mentions Vader as someone for Kylo Ren to aspire to, which is idiotic, because for a Dark Side adept - Vader is the ultimate traitor and false idol. He didn't just kill Palpatine, he RETURNED TO THE LIGHT SIDE OF THE FORCE AND SAVED HIS SON. This wasn't an egotistical act, to kill your master and usurp his power, which is indeed how Sith have operated for centuries, and that's how the cycle of the Order of Two works - when the apprentice is powerful enough to betray and kill his master he does so, himself becoming the master and taking a new apprentice, thus continuing the cycle (Pali himself seems to be aware of this, by pointing out that Snoke's killing was legitimate, and mentions Vader, but for some reason is unfazed at the idiocy of Snoke comparing his apprentice to Vader openly three times in the film, clearly admiring Vader). Vader killed Palpatine only to save Luke, and by doing this he also essentially killed himself by exposing himself to Palpatine's force lightning. It's an altruistic gesture, one of ultimate sacrifice and love towards your family member. Something a true Sith will never forgive or forget.
--- End quote ---
This depends on the assumption that Vader's last-minute turn is widely known, which I don't know has been at all established. Even in the EU, it wasn't until I, Jedi's accounting of the Jedi Academy trilogy time period that I can recall Luke telling anyone other than Leia about Vader's redemption, seemingly because he realized that most people wouldn't be able or willing to accept it. It's very possible that in the new timeline Snoke, Kylo Ren, and most of the galaxy don't even know it happened, and they just think that Luke defeated Vader and the Emperor on the Death Star II. I freely grant that this is a hole that requires an assumption like the above by the viewer to fill, and should've been clearly addressed in some way by the new movies - a couple lines of dialogue indicating my hypothesis or something similar as the case would've been enough - but it's not a big enough hole to bother me. I'm a Trekkie just as much as I'm a Star Wars fan - and as such I'm used to having to... adjust... continuity a bit to keep things coherent without letting it bother me. ;) If you ever want to see how far Trekkies go into doing that, visit the DaystromInstitute subreddit sometime and see how much we have to twist certain things there to make them work. :D
Regarding point 2) this is an aspect that I'm not sure any of us can really sway each other on even if we go on for a dozen pages here. What treatment of a character feels right is just so subjective a matter that it's impossible to say that one take or another is the "true" portrayal. I've seen enough feedback here and elsewhere that I like to think I have an understanding of why many weren't happy with it, Hamill included... but with respect to all, I can't help but like what we got. I'm a romantic at heart, and one of my favorite tropes to see executed well is the optimist-turned-cynic redemption arc, and I found the version we got with Luke here very satisfying.
I don't agree that Poe was a minor villain - he was a hero who made honest mistakes and had lessons he needed to learn. There is nothing wrong with that being a character arc in my view: good guys are more interesting when they screw up.
--- Quote ---And whatever he does, Kylo is just not an intimidating villain to me, especially in the universe where Jacen Solo exists.
--- End quote ---
Personally, I don't think he's intended to really be intimidating (and in official canon, Jacen Solo doesn't exist ;)). Star Wars has had plenty of intimidating villains, and I think they chose to go a new route with Kylo - he is, to me at least, a sympathetic villain. He's a tragic character whose life just keeps pushing him in the wrong direction, so he tries to embrace that even as part of him is screaming that its wrong. He's a character to pity more than fear in many ways, which is a type of villain rarely explored.
--- Quote ---(we do see shields working in this film, but HOW they work is completely fucking illogical, regardless of the power of turbolaser fire withstanded by the shields, no fucking shield can survive 18 HOURS OF CONTINUOUS FIRE UPON IT, the shield generator will just drain, and will never be able to keep recharging for this long, but whatever)
--- End quote ---
In fairness to the movie, they do specifically mention that the ship is at the very edge of turbolaser range and that the shots won't do much but remind the Resistance that the First Order is there. (edit: and to again reference the first X-Wing book, when Corran Horn flies against Tycho Celchu the first time, Tycho very intentionally starts firing at maximum range where his shots won't do damage but will distract Corran's targeting - again, precedent for maximum-range shots doing no damage but having tactical utility nonetheless)
--- Quote ---If you are able to not think of it as a Star Wars film while you're watching it, or if you're not much of a Star Wars fan to begin with, then I guess it's a fine sci-fi action film, with several surprising twists... All I can say, is that TLJ was less of a torture for a Star Wars fan than TFA was. If this is a compliment from me, it's a lukewarm one.
--- End quote ---
This is an attitude I do not like at all. Respectfully, but you do not have the authority to define what a Star Wars fan is or what said fans may view as being properly Star Wars. I've been a Star Wars fan for as long as I can remember - hell, I've got a Wraith Squadron patch-inspired tattoo of X-wings over the Rebel crest - and you are in no position to dictate whether or not I can enjoy this movie as a worthy addition to the saga. I've seen the same kind of gatekeeping bullshit on Star Trek forums as purists claim people who enjoy DSC or the recent movies can't be real fans, and its just as much nonsense there as it is here. Star Wars may mean different things to you and I, and you and I may enjoy different Star Wars stories and movies to varying degrees, but neither of us gets to tell the other that they aren't a fan - especially not just because you like specific Star Wars stories, concepts or characters I don't or vice versa.
It's interesting to me to note the disconnect between the movie's critical reception, fan reception I've seen online, and the reception of people I know IRL whether significant Star Wars fans or not. Metacritic gives a critic review average of 86; a user average of 4.8. Rotten Tomatoes has a 92% liked average for critics with an average 8.1 score, while users give a 54% liked with an average of 3.2/5 (or 6.4 of 10). The worst review I've gotten from a person I know IRL is "I liked it, but it's definitely got some issues", which was from one person of the dozen+ I've discussed the movie with; the others all had a great time, though like me, none thought the movie perfect. The critical reception and the people I know IRL seem to line up pretty well in agreement - a very solid addition to the saga, but with some room for improvement - it's the reception of people who view or identify themselves as Star Wars fans online that seems to stand out.
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