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Author Topic: The severely disappointing story in Disney/EA's Battlefront II (spoilers)  (Read 2953 times)

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November 18, 2017, 03:39:35 AMReply #20

Offline Guderian

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Thank you for the Post!
I was considering buying the game for the Singleplayer....
well now i won't buy it at all and stick to the original one!

November 18, 2017, 04:05:11 PMReply #21

Offline Mr.Puerto

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I will forever use this thread to show why new star wars fans will never want to explore legends.
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


November 18, 2017, 04:36:12 PMReply #22

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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I will forever use this thread to show why new star wars fans will never want to explore legends.
*sigh*
Dude you do realize that more people prefer the Thrawn Trilogy over the New movies? The lore breaks of legends were decades in the making. The new cannons lore started only a few years ago.
This thread shows why we need more Imperial stories.
don't get me wrong I enjoy some elements like the Lando mission, and The Han Solo one. But things like the defection and the lack of first order was what bothered me.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 04:39:36 PM by Illidan Stormrage »
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November 19, 2017, 05:43:09 AMReply #23

Offline kucsidave

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There is another way to fix it.
Iden being a double agent.
Remember his capture at the beggining? And later when she surrendered even Shriv said to Lando that he thought it was a trap?
Let's say that it is, just a really long and ellaborated one, and one Del or Hask knew nothing about.
I remember when Admiral Versio gave Iden her orders in front of palpybot, and it wasn't explained at all what they were. He just said that they are unusual. And I don't consider the protection of a Star Destroyer AKA an escort mission unusual, even if the cargo is valueable. Especially if the cargo is valueable.
Joining the rebels for an undetermined time is.
If we approach this logic it starts to make sense why Iden went from I want nothing to do with your rebellion, we gave the intel and just want to save our skin. Then: All right, just one battle and then. All the way to: All right, we will fight for the right cause. in the span of what seems like maybe an hour or two.
If wetake this idea as the base, there is nothing in the story that could contradict it.
No, not even the scene on the Star Destroyer going down, as the admiral was the one giving out the orders, and might have been afraid that the rebels will look trough the ship's records or something.
And then the ending speach from Hask gets a whole new meaning if we consider that he might have gained knowledge of what really went on.
Just listen to it with this in mind, and it gets really weird how much it fits.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 06:09:15 AM by kucsidave »
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

November 19, 2017, 11:39:00 AMReply #24

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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There is another way to fix it.
Iden being a double agent.
Remember his capture at the beggining? And later when she surrendered even Shriv said to Lando that he thought it was a trap?
Let's say that it is, just a really long and ellaborated one, and one Del or Hask knew nothing about.
I remember when Admiral Versio gave Iden her orders in front of palpybot, and it wasn't explained at all what they were. He just said that they are unusual. And I don't consider the protection of a Star Destroyer AKA an escort mission unusual, even if the cargo is valueable. Especially if the cargo is valueable.
Joining the rebels for an undetermined time is.
If we approach this logic it starts to make sense why Iden went from I want nothing to do with your rebellion, we gave the intel and just want to save our skin. Then: All right, just one battle and then. All the way to: All right, we will fight for the right cause. in the span of what seems like maybe an hour or two.
If wetake this idea as the base, there is nothing in the story that could contradict it.
No, not even the scene on the Star Destroyer going down, as the admiral was the one giving out the orders, and might have been afraid that the rebels will look trough the ship's records or something.
And then the ending speach from Hask gets a whole new meaning if we consider that he might have gained knowledge of what really went on.
Just listen to it with this in mind, and it gets really weird how much it fits.
That could work, but at the same time would Iden really do something like this?
Keep in mind Del defected as well which means either he would have needed to know as well, or Iden is tricking him which breaks the love story between them.
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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November 19, 2017, 12:55:07 PMReply #25

Offline kucsidave

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TBH, I really wouldn't mind breaking it, but it doesn't have to happen.
Del only defects because he loves Iden and thinks she is serious and Iden loves Del as well, she just doesn't tell him because orders keep her from doing so.
Also if we go from Iden loves Del, then she doesn't tell him exacrly because she loves him and doesn't want to break his heart.
But to be honest, I really don't like that it always have to break down on love every single goddamn time. It is starting to be cliche and the first time Del and Iden started talking I immediately thought: "Now A, they're gonna fall in love. or B, One falls for the other and the other one betrays him/her." And looks like option A won.
And I am not against a good love story, don't misunderstand, but Other than they were both Inferno, what is common within Iden and Del that was shown in the campaign? I haven't seen anything really. It basicly boils down to You are woman, I am man or the other way around, and we know each other. THE END.
That's why I wouldn't mind breaking them up. If they would have handled it better I wouldn't dare touch it. But they didn't.
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

November 19, 2017, 01:30:56 PMReply #26

Offline Lord Xizer

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Their are many options to fix Iden's story
1. You could say that maybe some rouge element of the rebellion(Maybe EX-Partisans wanting revenge on Iden?) sabotage Operation: Cinder so that it targets Vardos. It would add a whole new level a betrayal and tragedy to Iden's story
2. You could say that Maybe Del when Del went to Pillio that he got capture by members of The New Republic and that when Iden and Gideon show up Iden gets capture. You then could say Iden and Del then "break free" and no one questions a thing, but In reality they had been brainwashed and therefore when Vardos was targeted it trigger the brain washing.
3. Have Iden's memories alter?

My problem with Iden defecting is that it doesn't fit with what we read of Iden in the books. With Del its a bit of a stretch and quiet honestly he did say he follow Iden's orders. The biggest problem with what they did for the story is that it A: Breaks lore and B: Undermines the whole point of Iden being a Imperial


Lets look at it like this:
A: Lore is broken too much in this game. The first big instance of lore breaking kicks off in mission 5(AKA Vardos mission). In this mission we see something that doesn't make sense, which is Garrick Veriso doing what he did. Garrick Veriso in the book stress the importance of Vardos and how he values you it a lot, hence why he brought it into the Empire. I don't care if the sentinels claimed it as a order, Garrick Veriso has defied orders before for his daughter so why follow orders that undermine his daughters loyalty? The next thing is that this games make no reference Seyn Marana and the fact that she died for Inferno Squadron. This further breaks the whole defection to the New Republic by Del and Iden. Also Does Iden even join the rebellion? She must know that they murder Gideon Hask's parents, leaving him a orphan. Also Bespin was under a warlords control.
The thing that offended me most about the story is the lack of references to the books. I just hate it and it pisses me off.

B: Iden being a Imperial turned rebel is also what killed the campaign for most. We have had way to many Imperial Defectors and it is getting old fast. And this was one of the games main selling points, that we Fight as a Imperial for the future of the Empire. The other problem is the trailers all hint at different things that never happen. Where is the part where Iden gives a speech to stormtroopers on Vardos about how hope cannot save them?

I think what happened is the story group intervene or EA just advertised this game wrong. I believe more likely the story group interfered and changed Iden and Del's story. I really wish we could retcon the defection out of the cannon since I don't understand it.


What did you expect? Disney to take risks and be original? Screw that! There's money to be made with phone in nostalgia!
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

November 19, 2017, 06:21:49 PMReply #27

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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TBH, I really wouldn't mind breaking it, but it doesn't have to happen.
Del only defects because he loves Iden and thinks she is serious and Iden loves Del as well, she just doesn't tell him because orders keep her from doing so.
Also if we go from Iden loves Del, then she doesn't tell him exacrly because she loves him and doesn't want to break his heart.
But to be honest, I really don't like that it always have to break down on love every single goddamn time. It is starting to be cliche and the first time Del and Iden started talking I immediately thought: "Now A, they're gonna fall in love. or B, One falls for the other and the other one betrays him/her." And looks like option A won.
And I am not against a good love story, don't misunderstand, but Other than they were both Inferno, what is common within Iden and Del that was shown in the campaign? I haven't seen anything really. It basicly boils down to You are woman, I am man or the other way around, and we know each other. THE END.
That's why I wouldn't mind breaking them up. If they would have handled it better I wouldn't dare touch it. But they didn't.
In the book their is more.
At one point Del and Gideon are undercover and are in the custody of a pirate queen. Their mission is to convince her they are partisans so they could be led to the dreamers. While talking with the pirate queen Del comments on how attractive she was. What's funny is that he comments on how the pirate queen reminds him of Iden when he describes them both as "Strong and beautiful" which then Del realizes he is thinking of how beautiful Iden was and shrugs it off as too much alcohol.

Iden and Del also tended to have similar views of the Empire and both are generally good people.
What I fail to understand is how Iden and Del have no problem killing stormtroopers when Iden constantly reflects in the books about how the rebels don't really know that their are people under the masks. Another thing is that Iden gets really upset after mentioning all the good people they lost on the death star, such as Colonel Yulearan. We also here how Gideon Hask was a orphan who lost his family to the rebellion(not the partisans) in a terror attack on the kuat shipyards. That is one of the reasons Gideon is so loyal is because he hates the rebellion for taking his family from him.

The book destroys Iden and Del's defection, but also things involving that shitty star wars mobile game also break the defection. In Star wars uprising the Governor of the Anoat Sector Adheard had placed a Iron Blockaded over the sector, and was trying to hide the Emperor's death. We then find out Leia, and Lando had been recruiting terrorists, criminals(not like common thugs, but murders, rapists, and mobsters), and various crime families to help start a rebellion in the sector.

Now think about that. That is something Iden and Del would never do. They would never fund criminals to take over a planet. I could understand Iden and Del working to stop Operation: Cinder, but I don't understand why they would join the rebellion. As they said the campaign themselves they feared being thrown in Sunspot prison(which is a prison design to hold imperials) 
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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January 13, 2018, 05:10:49 PMReply #28

Offline AppTRL

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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.

January 13, 2018, 06:42:30 PMReply #29

Offline Loyal Khondor

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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.

Even so, they could of at least made an attempt to make it interesting instead of the same old rehash of Imperials defecting to the Alliance.
"The Empire maintains order, and people like you disrupt that order."―Sarkli to Wedge Antilles over Geonosis

 

January 13, 2018, 11:43:49 PMReply #30

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.
When your dealing with something like star wars, fans care for story and lore. You can not tell me that making Iden do a full 180 like that would make sense in real life.

That's like a US Marine defecting to the Islamic State because a drone strike killed some people who were not meant to be killed.
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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January 14, 2018, 10:35:11 PMReply #31

Offline Mr.Puerto

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When your dealing with something like star wars, fans care for story and lore. You can not tell me that making Iden do a full 180 like that would make sense in real life.

That's like a US Marine defecting to the Islamic State because a drone strike killed some people who were not meant to be killed.

Which has happened, but that is really inaccurate. What would be better is "It would be like a Marine defecting because the US killed his home town."
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 10:39:36 PM by Mr.Puerto »
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


January 15, 2018, 01:52:36 PMReply #32

Offline AppTRL

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Which has happened, but that is really inaccurate. What would be better is "It would be like a Marine defecting because the US killed his home town."

Well...in fairness...Iden defected because the Empire did kill her home for no reason whatsoever other than blinding following the last orders of their dead Emperor. I don't like how quickly she defected to the New Republic, but it's not like Iden changing allegiance is completely unreasonable. It was just done in a boring and lazy way.

January 15, 2018, 04:41:04 PMReply #33

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Well...in fairness...Iden defected because the Empire did kill her home for no reason whatsoever other than blinding following the last orders of their dead Emperor. I don't like how quickly she defected to the New Republic, but it's not like Iden changing allegiance is completely unreasonable. It was just done in a boring and lazy way.
Its like if the President of the United States was killed and the response of the US government is to purge Texas with the shitty Geostorm thing.

i also like to point out that Iden never returned to Vardos to try and rebuild it along with the NR. I also like to mention that rumors have suggested the NR knew about Operation: Cinder and chose not to act until the Empire began killing people. What a bunch of dicks. In fact none of Iden's choices in the game make sense. In the book Iden believes in the Empire so much that she hates going undercover as a defector. Her mother told her to serve the Empire and make her proud. Why is this not addressed?
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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January 16, 2018, 07:48:00 PMReply #34

Offline AppTRL

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Its like if the President of the United States was killed and the response of the US government is to purge Texas with the shitty Geostorm thing.

i also like to point out that Iden never returned to Vardos to try and rebuild it along with the NR. I also like to mention that rumors have suggested the NR knew about Operation: Cinder and chose not to act until the Empire began killing people. What a bunch of dicks. In fact none of Iden's choices in the game make sense. In the book Iden believes in the Empire so much that she hates going undercover as a defector. Her mother told her to serve the Empire and make her proud. Why is this not addressed?

I think you are missing the point of Operation Cinder. It was designed to be counterproductive, stupid, and accelerate the downfall of the Empire. In the new canon, Palpatine literally believed that if he died, the Empire had to die with him. Palpatine purposely picked a handful of blindly loyal (stupid) officers that would truly believe Operation Cinder would be for the benefit of the Empire.

It's suppose to look absurd and stupid. It would be to the average person. It wouldn't be to a fanatical, self-destructive Imperial.

January 17, 2018, 12:13:12 AMReply #35

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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I think you are missing the point of Operation Cinder. It was designed to be counterproductive, stupid, and accelerate the downfall of the Empire. In the new canon, Palpatine literally believed that if he died, the Empire had to die with him. Palpatine purposely picked a handful of blindly loyal (stupid) officers that would truly believe Operation Cinder would be for the benefit of the Empire.

It's suppose to look absurd and stupid. It would be to the average person. It wouldn't be to a fanatical, self-destructive Imperial.
But that is not who Garrick Versio is. The book highlights this by showing that his love for his daughter is more important then his love of the Empire.The thing is that Papaltine's plan should not work and it couldnt not possibly work. It requires certains things to happen a certain way and it ulimately confuses people.

Youtubers, casual star wars fans, and some lore nuts had trouble understanding the leep in logic. Levelcap called it a cop-out, Star Wars Explained said it was bad writing, and some of my friends were just pissed off because they didnt want to play as the rebellion/NR. In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group. Many of my friends complained that Operation: Cinder made watching Geostorm sound like a fun time. The reason it is stupid is not becuase its meant to be. They wrote themselves into a corner and fucked all lore now. We have this obsured 30 year gap where little to no fighting between the IR, the FO, and the NR took place. They havent fleshed out lore enough. In fact the reason Iden's defection is bad is becuase of how the game was marketed. We clearly saw things in both the launch trailer, and the reveal trailer that never appeared. What seems to have happened was that they reworte most of the story for no reason.

I for once want to play as a memeber of the Empire that stays with the Empire. Its a better story that we rarely get.
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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January 17, 2018, 05:08:35 PMReply #36

Offline AppTRL

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But that is not who Garrick Versio is. The book highlights this by showing that his love for his daughter is more important then his love of the Empire.The thing is that Papaltine's plan should not work and it couldnt not possibly work. It requires certains things to happen a certain way and it ulimately confuses people.

Youtubers, casual star wars fans, and some lore nuts had trouble understanding the leep in logic. Levelcap called it a cop-out, Star Wars Explained said it was bad writing, and some of my friends were just pissed off because they didnt want to play as the rebellion/NR. In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group. Many of my friends complained that Operation: Cinder made watching Geostorm sound like a fun time. The reason it is stupid is not becuase its meant to be. They wrote themselves into a corner and fucked all lore now. We have this obsured 30 year gap where little to no fighting between the IR, the FO, and the NR took place. They havent fleshed out lore enough. In fact the reason Iden's defection is bad is becuase of how the game was marketed. We clearly saw things in both the launch trailer, and the reveal trailer that never appeared. What seems to have happened was that they reworte most of the story for no reason.

I for once want to play as a memeber of the Empire that stays with the Empire. Its a better story that we rarely get.

Well, it's Star Wars. They're been dumber stuff done with superweapons before in Legends. Operation Cinder's "storms" are pretty tame. We're lucky they didn't just make the satellites align to fire some superlaser into the planet's core or something.

I can agree with the marketing being deceptive and the plot forcing Garrick Versio into a stupid role. It is what it is unfortunately.

However, Operation Cinder really isn't that implausible by "Star Wars logic." Again, all it takes is a few fanatical Imperials. It's no more contrived than Palpatine's rise to power in the Prequel Trilogy, which completely hinged on the Jedi essentially being gullible as hell.  The EU Palpatine did the same shit post-Episode 6 too; he sat on Byss and let the Imperials kill each other over Coruscant to "cull the weak" before revealing himself again to the galaxy.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 08:08:45 PM by AppTRL »

January 17, 2018, 05:43:00 PMReply #37

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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However, Operation Cinder really isn't that implausible by "Star Wars logic." Again, all it takes is a few fanatical Imperials. It's no more contrived than Palpatine's rise to power in the Prequel Trilogy, which completely hinded on the Jedi essentially being gullible as hell.  The EU Palpatine did the same shit post-Episode 6 too; he sat on Byss and let the Imperials kill each other over Coruscant to "cull the weak" before revealing himself again to the galaxy.
palpatine's rise is simple power politics 101. HE played the victim and he the all the power he needed. HE manpiulated people using his darkside followers. Keep in mind as well that for Operation: Cinder to work it has to have certain people do certain thinsg without loyalty question. EVen finatical Imperials would have a hard time doing what they did.

And your agurment is a false equivlancey. These senarios are uncompareable. Palpatine in the EU sat on Byss so he could build up his superweapons then call together the remaining Imperials to launch his invasion. Hidiing out and bidding his time is something Papaltine did. Palaptine played the long game.

Lets be honest as well. This happened over 1 YEAR. 1 Year is absurd. if it was fives years then okay, but a year? Seriously? The Empire outnumbered the rebellion even with Operation: Cinder and the Contingency in play. Their fleet is bigger, theid resources are vas and they outnumbered the rebellion 100 to 1
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 05:45:54 PM by Illidan Stormrage »
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January 17, 2018, 07:22:56 PMReply #38

Offline Mr.Puerto

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palpatine's rise is simple power politics 101. HE played the victim and he the all the power he needed. HE manpiulated people using his darkside followers. Keep in mind as well that for Operation: Cinder to work it has to have certain people do certain thinsg without loyalty question. EVen finatical Imperials would have a hard time doing what they did.

And your agurment is a false equivlancey. These senarios are uncompareable. Palpatine in the EU sat on Byss so he could build up his superweapons then call together the remaining Imperials to launch his invasion. Hidiing out and bidding his time is something Papaltine did. Palaptine played the long game.

Lets be honest as well. This happened over 1 YEAR. 1 Year is absurd. if it was fives years then okay, but a year? Seriously? The Empire outnumbered the rebellion even with Operation: Cinder and the Contingency in play. Their fleet is bigger, theid resources are vas and they outnumbered the rebellion 100 to 1
Shadow Hand effectively killed the Imperial Navy and that was in one year. He also purposely pitted imps together because of survival of the fittest. They both play out in a similar fashion so they are easy to compare. It's also Star Wars, if you expected a magnum opus you might want to look somewhere else.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 07:26:06 PM by Mr.Puerto »
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


January 17, 2018, 11:12:36 PMReply #39

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Shadow Hand effectively killed the Imperial Navy and that was in one year. He also purposely pitted imps together because of survival of the fittest. They both play out in a similar fashion so they are easy to compare. It's also Star Wars, if you expected a magnum opus you might want to look somewhere else.
they are not the even remotely similar.
Shadow Hand: May the best be worthy to be at my side during the Dark Empire(Also it was two years and the Imperial force was massive)
Operation Cinder: Please kill a bunch of innocent Imperial citizens because i said so. Also since people really love Geostorm lets use the shitty Geostorm weapons. Also hey you know this dickback here Gallius Rax? Listen to him! This is only because I lost my life and my new battlestation along with the cherry coke disepenser.

They simply arent compareble and bring in in Legends arguements is not vaild because (Being honest) the legends canonity suffers from having too much going on at once. Also both events aren smiliar becuase their is alot more going on with Shadow Hand and the Dark Empire

Shadow Hand: (why it makes sense) It comes off the back of Thrawn's humilation of the NR military during his campagin. The Imperial Warlordds band together and launch a massive campagin. They succeded because A. Coursant and its sourrding systems had light security as the NR engage Imperial forces in the Outer rim and B because they combined force was greater then the NR. They reason it fell so fast is simply infighting, conspiracies to kill Palpatine, and Luke SkyWalker fucking everything up. We also know the Carno Jax, and the intergiurm Council was playing their own shadow games. its acutally something more in depht lore nuts could talk about. Also all planets attacked by world devastors were NR loyalist worlds and are critical to the NR. It lasts from late 9ABY to the end of 11ABY.

Operation Cinder: It takes place insantly after Endor. How do i know this? Its because the cutsecene involing the messenger takes place roughly 2 days, but keep in mind it must have spoken to Garrick Veriso before hand. The plan required the destruction of Vardos, Naboo, Fondor, Bur Komin, and a few other Imperial worlds. The reasoning given to the Imperial Commanders was that it was retalation fear tactics to remind the galaxy who was in controled. Some imperials didnt agreed to this however we have no evidence to support a Imperial Civil War. Their is not anything i found that could lead to that information. So assume that the Empire goes along with plan then their army, navy, and Intelligence is somehow crippled duirng this gap. We dont know how either. We also dont know how many days, or months past when Operation cinder was launch. We do know the Empire brutally crushed, and massacured along with their families during the battle of Jakku which ended the War. the reason the war ended is because Mas Amidda bcame the new Imperial Leader and opted to surrender after being threaten by the NR. A couple groups chose not to stand down saying that this was unfair for the NR to force planets to join them. Other more radical Imperials formed the FO. THe ones who didnt dont like the FO and arent trusting of them.

In conclusion the reason Operation Cinder doesnt work is becuase of bad lore and bad writing. we get little to no details and we know almost nothing.



"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
"Your Memes will make a fine addition to my collection"
"YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!"

 

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