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Author Topic: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.  (Read 6658 times)

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May 11, 2017, 02:05:13 PM

Offline t78

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Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« on: May 11, 2017, 02:05:13 PM »
First off, all of what I am about to say is based on the assumption that Maldrood and Eriadu will get some sort of tech progression like the other factions. If this is not so, then forget all of what comes below.

With that out the way, here goes…


Generally, the Imperia Remnant’s roster doesn’t change much. Up until era 4, it has ssds in one form or another, defenders and scimitars come and go, but retains imperials and victories and a good complement of frigates. Even in era 5 it has these craft with a few other older ships. The land roster is mostly unchanged. Generally it seems that the remnant’s dire straits occur from territory losses rather than the roster changes. An isd versus a nebula is survivable. Two is preferable, but they can’t produce those kinds of numbers.


For the warlords, I saw an opportunity to create something different, that not only allows for an increase in difficulty for players as technology is lost, but to show these factions diverging from the remnant in philosophies and capabilities, gradually becoming different powers in their own right. Furthermore, I saw in these factions a chance to show what remains after Daala scoops up most of their equipment, post Tsoss beacon massacre. Essentially showing the post- civil war warlords without putting too much effort into yet another imperial faction. 

Perhaps most importantly, to do something really daring, and actually having the build bar significantly decrease in units. If even the suggestions below don’t work, I really would argue for a loss of capitals and other large craft to minimise the choices for the warlord players as times get tougher.

Maldrood provides the most obvious changes. A faction partially dependent on pirates, it seems likely that they would depend on them SLIGHTLY more as they lose equipment. Wookipedia makes it obvious enough that the warlords and renegade elements after the P-G treaty eventually turn semi-piratical (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Attacks_on_Imperial_holdouts).
On the other hand, it is NOT explicitly a ‘pirate faction’, as Corey has made clear. Non-imperial equipment would NOT have to be pirate aligned, it could possibly include law enforcement craft and corporate security forces. I personally am sick of seeing other mods suggest that pirates could be an organised force. Nonetheless, its imperial flavour would be heavily diluted as it scrambles for equipment- and given that there are now 6 factions with imperial equipment, I would absolutely be arguing for some factions to change over time.

The 5th era would thus represent those left behind by Daala. The ultra-diehards (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Replacement_warlord). They might have old cloakshape fighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CloakShape_fighter/Legends), Pursuers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pursuer-class_enforcement_ship), and Razor fighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Razor_Fighter), depending on where such craft are generally made and used. Certainly the invids made use of uglies other than the tie clutch, so they might have access to those (though those are pirate craft, so probably not).
Essentially, you get hyperspace capable fighters like the remnant’s preybirds, but these are immeasurably inferior. On the other hand, they might build very durable craft, irrespective of speed or firepower, dog-fight capable corvettes, to prevent further equipment losses. They might also have shuttles to steal or scavenge (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Assault_Shuttle) ships of frigate size and below after they have been reduced to low health- without capitals they would need to do everything to survive.
If a change in heroes post-Delvardus was appropriate, the replacement warlords page above makes it clear that Brakiss and the Shadow Academy sought help from the warlords- a mobile barracks building dark jedi? Whatever, thought the academy looked aesthetically impressive at least.



Remember, in Dark Saber the warlords are so cash strapped that 15 or so isds is seen as a significant force. Harrsk is proud of making one star destroyer on his own, and Delvardus, one of the most powerful warlords, has focussed all his material into the Night Hammer. Substantial, yes, but he is still comparatively limited in other forces, as Daala comments. This is around era 4. It seemed to me that taking away the ability to make isds and vsds in the final era would show how low these warlord fortunes have fallen. Yes, it would make things immeasurably harder, but every faction otherwise has capitals, and these ones would also do so prior to the last eras. 
Eventually Maldrood would be extremely distinctive. Some Ties and maybe a few older imperial frigates with non-imperial equipment filling the rest of the meagre roster. No capitals. Extremely difficult to use as faction. For those that might disagree, consider it a challenge- how skilled are you?

(and yes, conquering the galaxy and retaining this roster might seem off, but Pelleaon can do the same and be incapable of building tectors or SSDs. Artistic license has to be used some time)



I was also wondering how Eriadu would progress. Their roster seems slightly more geared towards rare or experimental units. Would a declining Eriadu faction slowly turn to more advanced yet rarer units, becoming unable to sustain their industrial base or defend it?

Then I came across this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IGV-55_surveillance_vessel

Something used for recon, crewed by lobot-type cyborgs. Perhaps instead of probe droids, eriadu might have this, revealing units in surrounding systems (but very expensive).

It hit me- Eriadu would devolve towards tech solutions that reflect automation. Expensive cyborg infantry and officers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/LT-319) supplementing stormtroopers, manning awacs ships and other craft, and a greater use of droids (might they be able to hack and take over droid units as a special ability?). Such craft might slowly develop more unique features and special abilities compared to other factions, with droid crewed vessels being outwardly similar to other warlord ships, being cheaper but slightly less powerful (reflecting the smaller but less capable crew on board). Might dark troopers and tie-droids be used as well? Perhaps cyborg units, both in space and on land, might have a special ability that reveals the map or a unit for a very short amount of time (due to their hacking/recon abilities).

Ultimately, the nadir of Eriadu would be era 4 and 5- the remnants that Daala couldn’t hoover up, using a mixture of very cheap droids that are not very good (these? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Terror_Droid http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nek/Legends http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Warcrawler), and extremely capable tech that can only be produced in small numbers (like this? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nemesis-class_gunship More powerful and tougher than a republic gunship, but less manoeuvrable, more expensive and with a build limit).


One final thing to add to this- I keep seeing people recommend clone wars stuff. Surely there’s plenty of old imperial equipment like the TIE/gt (ground-targeting) starfighter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/gt_starfighter) that could be used instead? This example would be a faster more numerous yet less powerful/ weaker tie bomber, perhaps replacing the tie bomber for a particularly resource-strapped faction (PA?).


These are just some thoughts, and they are probably too elaborate, non-canon and would add to the mod’s loading lag for minimal gain. Nonetheless, I thought I’d put these things out just in case people found something useful in them.  Is it ok to discuss this and hack out something from this that works?

If none of this is useful (though no matter what, I stand by the idea of taking away capitals and reducing the build bar in eras 4 and 5 for the warlords) then feel free to tell me to stop posting ideas. I’m not keen on forcing Corey to wearily crush every uninformed idea again and again. I don't like sounding unreasonable.

And that's it for now! Cheerio!
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 02:08:27 PM by t78 »

May 11, 2017, 02:25:25 PMReply #1

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2017, 02:25:25 PM »
wow. that's a lot of thought into that
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 11, 2017, 03:19:41 PMReply #2

Offline Corey

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2017, 03:19:41 PM »
Definitely don't stop posting ideas, but I'm gonna address this a bit more broadly than addressing specific points.

Warlords don't tie into the era system quite as much for a few reasons; and instead we try to give them some other kinds of progression through conquest. The first narrative one being, as you pointed out, as time went on they tended to lose power and resources.

With the Remnant itself, we're more comfortable with representing this because in order for them to reach those later eras and doctrines (to your point about them only losing SSDs for era 5, they don't have them in era 2 either), they have to actually lose something- if the Remnant wants to keep that stuff, it's up to them to not let that hero die. With the Warlords, if you're punishing them for era advancement in the same way, you're actually punishing them for success, or at least something they have no control over. They want to expand, they want to kill the Remnant. They shouldn't be, for example, in a battle with Thrawn or Isard and thinking "I wanna kill this hero, but I'm cutting myself off from my best ships if I win." If I manage to take down the Eclipse, I should feel good about that, not "well shit, there goes my fleet."


This is why some of their ships are more tied to territory- if the Greater Maldrood wants to maintain access to bigger ships, like the Bellator, they have very specific territory they have to hold, and they lose access to those things through their own failures. Same thing with stuff like units which require heroes being present. It's up to them to keep them alive, and as they actually start losing those heroes and that territory, that's when they start the canon decline, which makes sense. With the EotH and NR being tied so closely to the IR, by progressing they don't lose anything, so there's not the same issue of punishing success.


The second part is actually technical limitations of the engine. While you can use basic tech levels to unlock ships through progression, the story events to lock units aren't available to factions beyond the New Republic, Empire, and EotH (Rebel, Empire and Underworld factions in the code), which means you can't actually lock units for them.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 03:25:28 PM by Corey »
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May 11, 2017, 10:25:57 PMReply #3

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2017, 10:25:57 PM »
I do have a suggestion.
with warlords like Zsinj, the Remnant, and Delvardus they were looking for advance weapons so why not tied more Advance ships to Industrial worlds?
For example. If any faction wants Tie Defenders he can take a world that is run Sinar fleet systems or other cooperate and shipyard worlds.

I just think that in reality I shouldn't be able to build Tie defenders on obscure worlds or place like Roche Asteriods, or New Alderanan

If the Remnant wants Tie Defenders tie them to planets it make sense to be produce on.

Like:
Kuat
Courlag
Cardia
Fondor
Byss
Etc

planets like these should have more value therefore more reasons to take these worlds.


I also like more unique fighters. While the Clutch Ugly is the right step their are more ugly types like:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TYE-wing
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Y-TIE
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/X-TIE_Fighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/X-ceptor
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Z-%27ceptor

Other than uglys I like what this guy suggests:
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pursuer-class_enforcement_ship
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Razor_Fighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CloakShape_fighter/Legends


Now factions like Eraidu should be more experimental fighters
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/IT_Interdictor_starfighter
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/ad_starfighter


I mean all I say Is using gozanti Crusiers(my brother wants these)
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May 11, 2017, 10:58:44 PMReply #4

Offline Helix345

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2017, 10:58:44 PM »
that looks like a lot of random fighters.

If you really want uglies, I would wonder if you could put different models in the same squad, so that the ugly squadrons looked more rag tag and thrown togeather. for instance a squad of five could have two tye wings, an xceptor, an x-tie fighter, and a x-ceptor.

May 12, 2017, 05:23:09 AMReply #5

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2017, 05:23:09 AM »
Thrawn, you completely misunderstood the position of the Clutch.
It has a place with maldrood because it was a fighter of the Invids. A fighter exclusive to them, and the Invids were Leonia Tavira's pirate group.
So it make sense to have them. Just dishing out Uglies for maldrood is not the way we want to go.
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May 12, 2017, 10:38:30 AMReply #6

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2017, 10:38:30 AM »
that looks like a lot of random fighters.

If you really want uglies, I would wonder if you could put different models in the same squad, so that the ugly squadrons looked more rag tag and thrown togeather. for instance a squad of five could have two tye wings, an xceptor, an x-tie fighter, and a x-ceptor.

as for your question, the answer is Yes, as the YVaW has done it for multiple squadrons, but i don't know how to
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 12, 2017, 11:18:29 AMReply #7

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2017, 11:18:29 AM »
as for your question, the answer is Yes, as the YVaW has done it for multiple squadrons, but i don't know how to
That is actually quite easy as you put the crafts in the squadron one by one, so you can easily make a squad with no crafts alike.
This is how darth vader could lead a squadron of tie fighters in his advanced in vanila game
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And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

May 12, 2017, 05:44:12 PMReply #8

Offline t78

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2017, 05:44:12 PM »
Thankyou for your responses! Its very interesting to see the internal logic of the mod, and its all very impressive.

In light of this, in the unlikely event that pirates and civilian militia were added, it could only be as a set of units randomly summoned by a player (perhaps clicking on a build-button that will bring in a random unit from a list after building a pirate haven/ militia point/ whatever). These would be cheap, but being pirates you'd have to pay them off, not sell them if you regretted summoning them. You might also face the risk of randomly summoning useless die-wings if you try and 'build' too many of the better uglies like y-ties, x-ties and x-ceptors (in order of ascending usefulness).

Thus the player can use these craft if they are desperate/ need a temperary meat shield, but gets punished if they go too far.

Of course, ALL of this is moot/academic. Pirates, corporates and militias would clog everything up, and the Ai would spam them unnecessarily, best to avoid them.

It makes for an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

Anyways, I'll try and stick to more informed, non-pirate, suggestions from now on.

May 12, 2017, 06:25:44 PMReply #9

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2017, 06:25:44 PM »
I think you're overestimating the game's engine to be honest  :laugh:
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May 13, 2017, 04:27:51 AMReply #10

Offline t78

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2017, 04:27:51 AM »
I freely admit being dazzled with what you guys have accomplished already!   ;)

In all seriousness though, I am still trying to learn how things work, so I apologize if I have any excessively grandious ideas.

May 13, 2017, 11:45:48 PMReply #11

Offline Helix345

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2017, 11:45:48 PM »
You should feel free to post whatever suggestions you want. You never know if they can do it or not.

May 14, 2017, 12:01:44 AMReply #12

Offline Mr.Puerto

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2017, 12:01:44 AM »
Oh! I didn't mean it like in a mean way or anything lol. Yeah you should still post stuff like that, Me personally I thought the game's engine wouldn't be able to handle that. But who knows?
“In this world, whenever there is light, there are also shadows. As long as the concept of winners exist, there must also be losers. The selfish desire of wanting to maintain peace causes wars and hatred is born to protect love.“


May 14, 2017, 12:55:19 AMReply #13

Offline Corey

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2017, 12:55:19 AM »
Quote
I think you're overestimating the game's engine to be honest

Actually, randomizing stuff like that wouldn't be impossible. The difficulty would be more in creating enough assets for that.


And yeah, don't worry about that sort of thing T78, post whatever you want. It doesn't bother us if people make suggestions that aren't possible- at the worst, it shows people are interested which is a big motivator, and even if we can't use a specific suggestion, it could lead us to think of something else, or prompt a discussion that leads to something that the mod can use.
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May 14, 2017, 10:46:18 AMReply #14

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2017, 10:46:18 AM »
I think it be funny if raid fleets were more pirate ships.

My brother's suggestion:
the ability to build asteroid mining factories in GC as a space cash 
or casinos.

bespin gets tabanna gas collectors for huge cash

Era 2 empire gets praetor lls: his reason is teren rogriss use some at kuat along with other battlecrusiers
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May 14, 2017, 10:55:23 AMReply #15

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2017, 10:55:23 AM »
the IR built some in Corey's campaign for GM, but i'm pretty sure Thrawn won't get any
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 14, 2017, 04:20:11 PMReply #16

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2017, 04:20:11 PM »
Era 2 empire gets praetor lls: his reason is teren rogriss use some at kuat along with other battlecrusiers
I don't remember if it made it into the demo or not, but Corey and I discussed having Rogriss spawn on Kuat with Aurora as a Praetor when Zsinj dies and the Imperial Remnant splits out.
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May 14, 2017, 09:18:17 PMReply #17

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2017, 09:18:17 PM »
I just think only for era progression Gcs only that era 2 Ir gets praetors, but only can be built at kuat.
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May 14, 2017, 09:54:58 PMReply #18

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #18 on: May 14, 2017, 09:54:58 PM »
can you do limited area build on units for a single era?
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

May 14, 2017, 10:55:46 PMReply #19

Offline Illidan Stormrage

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Re: Maldrood and Eriadu era progression.
« Reply #19 on: May 14, 2017, 10:55:46 PM »
can you do limited area build on units for a single era?
they do that with the eclipse and other heroes like the Errant venture in era 5
"The Empire did nothing wrong obviously" :)
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