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Author Topic: Why can't we have nice things  (Read 4077 times)

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January 01, 2017, 08:33:00 PM

Offline commander praji

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Why can't we have nice things
« on: January 01, 2017, 08:33:00 PM »
I think this will be one of the final times i question our god emperor and feel free to jump in

Corey has been a firm but fair ruler and has been unbelievably patient when it comes to me bitching about the trooper corps or certain vehicles that are in the game

I really did think of this before opening my trap but i dont get what he means about each unit needing a role i mean its hard to tell with the ships besides how fast they blow each other up

For example why not stormsurgeons or the force unleashed imperial medic instead of specialists which our god emperor has pretty much confirmed as fanon.

Why i get greedoed for suggesting shadow troopers which technically could happen just a nova trooper without a golden stripe unless there is something that makes the unique i mean corey pretty much explained the technical reason why shadow troopers would be pointless since cw hates the noghri stealth mechanic (which now i kinda i see why they were removed in other gcs)

Also back to field troopers , i know dark forces made them their own thing but here me out they could be a cheaper anti vehicle unit (is thinking of the field trooper with the rail detonator) why not ? Shock troopers same to work only on aircraft for me .

Before the mighty hand of slornie can bitch slap me into the maw . i know why cant fit every bloody thing the rebels and imps used other wise it would be utter chaos on the UI. (Mainly ive just been hoping NR finally gets aliens so i dont feel so weirded out about NR being almost alien free )

Im honestly not trying to shit on our god emperor and his lovely band of merry men ( i actually admire their attention to events and making each team not feel like a carbon copy )

If anything i would be like the non canon expert (star wars reading club guy) and be like " what a second ??? Scout troopers were more likely to be snipers than storm commandos " or "storm commandos should just get a flamethrower or standard rifles "  or even "zinsj used bebulons ??? Like the nr? Must have missed something "

So im ready to be attacked by sand people now ...lol but can any one even the team explain what fills the niche ? Be

January 01, 2017, 09:50:50 PMReply #1

Offline Corey

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2017, 09:50:50 PM »
Quote
For example why not stormsurgeons or the force unleashed imperial medic instead of specialists which our god emperor has pretty much confirmed as fanon.

They're not Stormsurgeons from galaxies because Stormsurgeons look identical to regular stormtroopers, which is not helpful for identifying them while playing. We made our specialists (which are NOT JUST MEDICS) into what they are because we needed something to fill that role, and Knickers had already made it for his personal FX Mod. It's what we had access to. I've already explained like 5000 times games are incredibly inconsistent on what different soldier types are, what equipment was, what uniforms look like, an it's not just "yeah they had so many things"; it's all directly redundant and contradictory. There's, for example, no New Republic infantry uniform used in any two different sources. We more or less have to pick what aspects from each thing we think work best and try to make something that both works with what we need it to do ingame and we're happy with.

Quote
Why i get greedoed for suggesting shadow troopers which technically could happen just a nova trooper without a golden stripe unless there is something that makes the unique i mean corey pretty much explained the technical reason why shadow troopers would be pointless since cw hates the noghri stealth mechanic (which now i kinda i see why they were removed in other gcs)

You don't "get Greedoed," I just tell you we're not doing stuff.  Most infantry types, even if they look different or have a slightly different weapon, would do the exact same thing, and would require a lot of work to make. Most of these things are just slightly better stormtroopers, which you can't really represent in stats. You've given examples before of how some stuff would use gun A and some use gun B, but while this may LOOK different, under the hood it's doing the exact same thing. No matter whether they have marginally better weapons or armour, that doesn't really make a trooper better against vehicles, it's all about how they are against other infantry, and considering how infantry combat works, for a noticeable difference you'd either have to make them so much better as to invalidate the other types, or you're making them marginally better so that, like usual, the advantage just goes back to being whomever shoots first.

This, again, leaves you really only with enough room to make at most two types of soldiers in the same role per faction before they're just sitting there filling slots. Whether it's a rail detonator or a rocket, the game doesn't give a fuck. You get to a point where to 99% of the playerbase it's just pointless filler, and the only people who even care in the slightest aren't appreciating them for gameplay value, it's entirely just a "this was in something else so it should be here" factor.

I'm going to contextualize this a bit. These are the things you've asked for without looking super far:
Playable factions: Moff Sarne, CSA, Mandalorians, a crime faction, Zero Command, Hapes Consortium, Empire Reborn and Ssi-Ruuvi

Infantry: Shadow troopers, incinerator troopers, jump troopers, Bothan commandos, twi'lek commandos, Wookie soldiers, Sullustan grenadiers, field troopers, espos, trandoshan mercs, magma troopers, swamp troopers, EVO troopers, Hazard Troopers, Imperial medics, B1s, B2s, B3s, Dwarf Spider Droids, Assault Troopers, Stormtrooper Grendiers, Shadow Hand style Dark Troopers

Even mods that don't make any of their own models and just port them from other games don't have that much content, we have more content than pretty much any other mod and we make ALL of it. This takes time. We've taken 10 years to get where we are, which includes 3 new playable factions in the upcoming release, and the suggestions you've made alone, if we did all of them, would double the amount of playable factions and probably double, maybe even triple the amount of infantry we've made, and that's just for the Imperial factions and NR, leaving aside anything we're doing for the EotH or any of the infantry for the 8 factions you've asked for. It's fine if you want this stuff, enthusiasm is great, and everyone can want whatever they want, but the problem is throwing around words like "heresy" that these things aren't in or presenting it like we're somehow being unfair by not doing them, or that we're unaware of their existence. Or saying "why can't we have nice things" in this free mod. If we say "no" to something, it's for a reason; asking for it a half-dozen more times won't change that reason. We usually explain that reason. This doesn't mean don't make suggestions, we've made plenty of changes and additions based on suggestions. It just means if we say no and give the reason, respect that and don't ask for the same thing 86 more times or ask why you "can't have nice things" because we didn't add it to our huge to-do list. It also doesn't mean it's NEVER going to happen, just that it's not on our priority list right now.

The biggest factor here is, even if we granted the premise that existing is perfect grounds for inclusion, you seem to ignore that things don't pop into existence, they have to actually be made. It's not like we're sitting around here waiting for more stuff to do, we already have a list of things we'd like to do that would take YEARS if we did it all, so it's a matter of deciding what's actually worth doing. We've barely even been able to touch stuff in the Unknown Regions. I started this mod when I was 13. I am now about to turn 25. We can't do it forever and we can't devote all of our time to it, we have to work and we have university to worry about.  In that case, a dozen new infantry types on a build bar that's already filled to bursting which don't actually do anything in any way different than what's there not only doesn't add anything, it detracts from our ability to work on stuff that DOES add variety to not just visuals but gameplay as well. The more important stuff gets done, the more we can devote to minutiae, maybe even throwing in some of the stuff that's really just fanservice variety for variety's sake without it necessarily doing anything super new, but for now everything we decide to do essentially means deciding NOT to do something else. I spend almost all of my free time on this, we've expanded the scope of the mod a TON to accommodate what people want out of it based on suggestions even if it means committing myself or the team to dozens if not hundreds of hours of more work.  We're making the Warlords because people wanted the Warlords, for example. So when we say something isn't a priority, there's a reason for that. We're not just trying to be dicks or like "haha let's deprive people of all this stuff for no reason!" We're making decisions about what improves the mod the most, because it's physically impossible to do everything.

Quote
If anything i would be like the non canon expert (star wars reading club guy) and be like " what a second ??? Scout troopers were more likely to be snipers than storm commandos " or "storm commandos should just get a flamethrower or standard rifles "   

We spend more time on Wookiepedia than any reasonable person should, we're in no way internally lacking for Star Wars knowledge. We just also don't think what makes a good game is throwing in everything we find a page for, and we also understand how to prioritize things. Storm Commandos could have a variety of different loadouts and training profiles. We went for what best fit them into a "commando" unit slot. Because again, gameplay is more important in this case than trying to match the incredibly inconsistent and contradictory source material on the subject.

Quote
or even "zinsj used bebulons ??? Like the nr? Must have missed something

You did miss something. Nebulon-Bs were Imperial ships. In designing the Warlords, it's not just about "what was each one explicitly mentioned as using" or it would probably just be ISDs and nothing else everywhere. It's about trying to say what would have been proportionally more prominent within different groups and trying to make unit lists that are comprised of things which shows off those units. Technically you could probably put every unit used by every Warlord into the same roster and use it for everyone, but that would make every faction the exact same and not highlight any of their particularities. Zsinj had a tendancy to use slightly more experimental Imperial tech. Nebulon-Bs were incredibly common in Imperial fleets pre-Endor, and Zsinj felt like the best place to represent that (considering he's also very commonly shown using things like CR90s.

Just because a group in the EU used the Allegiance or Praetor doesn't mean they didn't use the other one, but for gameplay purposes we typically stick with one or the other per faction, and try to pick the one that fits their gameplay style and fills holes in their roster the most.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2017, 10:19:43 PM by Corey »
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January 01, 2017, 11:15:40 PMReply #2

Offline commander praji

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2017, 11:15:40 PM »
I think this will be one of the final times i question our god emperor and feel free to jump in

Corey has been a firm but fair ruler and has been unbelievably patient when it comes to me bitching about the trooper corps or certain vehicles that are in the game

I really did think of this before opening my trap but i dont get what he means about each unit needing a role i mean its hard to tell with the ships besides how fast they blow each other up

For example why not stormsurgeons or the force unleashed imperial medic instead of specialists which our god emperor has pretty much confirmed as fanon.

Why i get greedoed for suggesting shadow troopers which technically could happen just a nova trooper without a golden stripe unless there is something that makes the unique i mean corey pretty much explained the technical reason why shadow troopers would be pointless since cw hates the noghri stealth mechanic (which now i kinda i see why they were removed in other gcs)

Also back to field troopers , i know dark forces made them their own thing but here me out they could be a cheaper anti vehicle unit (is thinking of the field trooper with the rail detonator) why not ? Shock troopers same to work only on aircraft for me .

Before the mighty hand of slornie can bitch slap me into the maw . i know why cant fit every bloody thing the rebels and imps used other wise it would be utter chaos on the UI. (Mainly ive just been hoping NR finally gets aliens so i dont feel so weirded out about NR being almost alien free )

Im honestly not trying to shit on our god emperor and his lovely band of merry men ( i actually admire their attention to events and making each team not feel like a carbon copy )

If anything i would be like the non canon expert (star wars reading club guy) and be like " what a second ??? Scout troopers were more likely to be snipers than storm commandos " or "storm commandos should just get a flamethrower or standard rifles "  or even "zinsj used bebulons ??? Like the nr? Must have missed something "

So im ready to be attacked by sand people now ...lol but can any one even the team explain what fills the niche ? Be

You do get god emperor im not saying add all that shit. Even as a gamer i would find that insane and that would mean the mod would takes years

Also to correct you if i recalled i never said i wanted b1 or b2s ? Or a majority of droids i used examples of old confed droids being used by imps . i mean zinsj has bliddy droidekas and in legends he never USED droidkekas unlike the corps using dwarf spiders which i saw as a cheap mini tank for remnant but meh old history is old

My point is the reason ive been preaching to the choir is because some of the fun mechanics of the game have apparently been stripped or not reworked yet

Assault trooper??? What the fuck?? I never said add that or the magma either i SAID i could see what your talking about because a magma trooper would just be a trooper immune to fire damage like on sullustan. And i SAID i could see what your meaning because a assault trooper is exactly the same function

January 01, 2017, 11:31:55 PMReply #3

Offline Corey

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2017, 11:31:55 PM »
Quote
i mean zinsj has bliddy droidekas and in legends he never USED droidkekas unlike the corps using dwarf spiders which i saw as a cheap mini tank for remnant but meh old history is old

Zsinj gets Droidekas ONLY via the Corporate Sector who used them, same as with Lucrehulks.

Quote
My point is the reason ive been preaching to the choir is because some of the fun mechanics of the game have apparently been stripped or not reworked yet

What mechanics did we strip out? The only thing we don't use is stealth, which we have tried to use, and explained multiple times that it's entirely a technical issue.

Quote
Also to correct you if i recalled i never said i wanted b1 or b2s ? Or a majority of droids i used examples of old confed droids being used by imps .
Assault trooper??? What the fuck?? I never said add that or the magma either i SAID i could see what your talking about because a magma trooper would just be a trooper immune to fire damage like on sullustan. And i SAID i could see what your meaning because a assault trooper is exactly the same function

Maybe one or two you were just bringing up and didn't mean to suggest, but a few of them you definitely did suggest, ie B1s:


Quote from: Praji
but o was curious if the dwarf spider droid will be added since they served in the stormtrooper corps but as garrisons and check points or ...b1s

And even if I remove every single one of those from the list (in some cases it wasn't explicit whether you were saying they existed or we should add them, because you've basically used that as a reason to add stuff in the first place), that still leaves more infantry than we already have added in the mod, and 8 factions which you DEFINITELY said we should do. You're missing the point. There's nothing wrong with asking for stuff, but if we say we're not doing it, there's usually a reason for that. There are other priorities, and things have to be justified in being in the mod; it's a question of "why" do something, not "why not?" Doing thing A means we don't have the resources to do thing B; we're not just sitting here waiting for more work, there's always more to be done, even if we didn't add anything and instead only focus our resources on improving what's already there.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2017, 07:24:24 AM by Corey »
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January 10, 2017, 07:25:03 PMReply #4

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2017, 07:25:03 PM »
hey Praji, if you want this stuff so bad, make these factions in your own minimod, then you can appreciate what corey&co do. hush already
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

January 10, 2017, 08:15:34 PMReply #5

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2017, 08:15:34 PM »
I think this will be one of the final times i question our god emperor and feel free to jump in

Corey has been a firm but fair ruler and has been unbelievably patient when it comes to me bitching about the trooper corps or certain vehicles that are in the game

I really did think of this before opening my trap but i dont get what he means about each unit needing a role i mean its hard to tell with the ships besides how fast they blow each other up

For example why not stormsurgeons or the force unleashed imperial medic instead of specialists which our god emperor has pretty much confirmed as fanon.

Why i get greedoed for suggesting shadow troopers which technically could happen just a nova trooper without a golden stripe unless there is something that makes the unique i mean corey pretty much explained the technical reason why shadow troopers would be pointless since cw hates the noghri stealth mechanic (which now i kinda i see why they were removed in other gcs)

Also back to field troopers , i know dark forces made them their own thing but here me out they could be a cheaper anti vehicle unit (is thinking of the field trooper with the rail detonator) why not ? Shock troopers same to work only on aircraft for me .

Before the mighty hand of slornie can bitch slap me into the maw . i know why cant fit every bloody thing the rebels and imps used other wise it would be utter chaos on the UI. (Mainly ive just been hoping NR finally gets aliens so i dont feel so weirded out about NR being almost alien free )

Im honestly not trying to shit on our god emperor and his lovely band of merry men ( i actually admire their attention to events and making each team not feel like a carbon copy )

If anything i would be like the non canon expert (star wars reading club guy) and be like " what a second ??? Scout troopers were more likely to be snipers than storm commandos " or "storm commandos should just get a flamethrower or standard rifles "  or even "zinsj used bebulons ??? Like the nr? Must have missed something "

So im ready to be attacked by sand people now ...lol but can any one even the team explain what fills the niche ? Be

My dear fellow, be reasonable. Currently the mod team is working to develop three more fully functional and playable Warlord factions as well as revamping massive quantities of a game that is more than a decade old making it feel up to date and brand new. Most of your requests are cosmetic and something more fitting for a personal sub mod rather than the main game which already has nearly three times the factions of any other EaW mod and certainly more diversity than any of the others I've seen while striving to prevent redundancy. As a fanatic for the Warlords and the EU there are certainly things i want in that are more or less detail/cosmetic(The Seven Dark Jedi, Nuso Esva, the Ssi Ruuvi and the Vagaari in an EotH only GC) but realize that they don't directly add to overall gameplay or appeal to a majority enough to justify the labor put into making them right now. This is why sub mods exist. You can simply add what you want into the growing masterpiece of ICW. Corey has made sound arguments in his postings and I quite agree with him in these matters. If you are dead set on adding what you wish then do so in a sub mod to 2.2 when it comes out.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

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January 11, 2017, 02:49:45 PMReply #6

Offline commander praji

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2017, 02:49:45 PM »
My dear fellow, be reasonable. Currently the mod team is working to develop three more fully functional and playable Warlord factions as well as revamping massive quantities of a game that is more than a decade old making it feel up to date and brand new. Most of your requests are cosmetic and something more fitting for a personal sub mod rather than the main game which already has nearly three times the factions of any other EaW mod and certainly more diversity than any of the others I've seen while striving to prevent redundancy. As a fanatic for the Warlords and the EU there are certainly things i want in that are more or less detail/cosmetic(The Seven Dark Jedi, Nuso Esva, the Ssi Ruuvi and the Vagaari in an EotH only GC) but realize that they don't directly add to overall gameplay or appeal to a majority enough to justify the labor put into making them right now. This is why sub mods exist. You can simply add what you want into the growing masterpiece of ICW. Corey has made sound arguments in his postings and I quite agree with him in these matters. If you are dead set on adding what you wish then do so in a sub mod to 2.2 when it comes out.

Dont worry friend xizer. Our god emepror has shown me the error of my bitching ways

January 11, 2017, 06:12:13 PMReply #7

Offline DarthRevansRevenge

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2017, 06:12:13 PM »
thank goodness for that
do you know what really makes me mad? that the NR didn't make as many different SSDs as the empire. they would have won much faster had they done so. it's just not fair. but, if their were more NR SSDs, they would be absolute SUPER-CARRIERS.

but, i'm a member of the PA at heart, and my wish here is to join the ranks of grand admirals... sorry, the elite imperial alignment

January 11, 2017, 08:22:02 PMReply #8

Offline SentrY

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2017, 08:22:02 PM »
Offering suggestions is fine just think about their value and their workload before asking. Now you just sound like a whiny bitch. also don't say why we can't have nice things when this mod is free at the expense of our overlords time. Just think before you write a bunch of wants.

January 11, 2017, 08:38:19 PMReply #9

Offline commander praji

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2017, 08:38:19 PM »
Im sorry sentry how old are you? This thread was suppose to be dead since corey brought to my attention my selfishness.  But since people want to keep bumping it up....how bout choke on it cunt. Good evening

January 11, 2017, 09:01:25 PMReply #10

Offline Helix345

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Re: Why can't we have nice things
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2017, 09:01:25 PM »
lets keep it clean guys, I hate reading insults that are as uncreative as those. You should make me laugh or stunned, not saddened that that's all you got.

 

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