Those working on this mod do so in their own free time and for no pay.
Show your support for them by enabling ads on this site!

Author Topic: Fighter Balance  (Read 17085 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

August 21, 2013, 01:40:53 PM

Offline jordanthejq12

  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 173
  • Approval: +5/-1
  • RIP, Expanded Universe. You will be missed.
    • View Profile
Fighter Balance
« on: August 21, 2013, 01:40:53 PM »
Simply put, is there such a thing?

In this mod, missile and torpedo armaments in space do not bypass shielding, a near anomaly in the Empire at War community. (A notable exception would be vanilla's diamond-boron missiles.) However, I have come to realize why this is so: it would make fighters way too imbalanced.

Think about it. TR fighters have these advantages over their counterparts in the parent game and other mods:
  • Almost every fighter carries a projectile weapon. For example, the Republic not only has torpedo-carrying Y-Wings but two effective fighter-bombers (B-Wing and X-Wing) and the missile-armed A-Wing.
  • They come in squads of twelve, as opposed to the 3-5 per squadron elsewhere, meaning better firepower and a longer lifespan.
  • They are launched in huge quantities; a decent-sized carrier can have five or six squadrons. And the main reason this is being changed to a standard active/reserve capacity is not for balance, apparently, but for performance.
  • There are many carriers themselves, and that combined with a tactical cap of forty can mean a large swarm. I don't know how much you experienced players value combined arms and diversified fleets, but even a basic fleet composed of one or two of each useful ship can give you literally hundredsof individual units. Imagine what you can get with ten Star Destroyers or Mon Calamari Cruisers.

Napoleon once said "I have destroyed the enemy merely by marches." In similar fashion, you can destroy the enemy merely by fighter swarms. And keeping a crapload of Lancers/Corellian Corvettes/whatever isn't going to do it, because you then lack the firepower to face the heavy cruisers or cap ships launching said fighters. And that swarm, if you are on the launching end, means you can keep your big guns in the back to guard against raid fleets, because a mass of 300 fighters will, eventually, overwhelm everything. I frankly can't imagine how broken this would be if projectiles went through shields. Suddenly Empire at War turns into X-Wing.

So my questions to you--in a pick-your-brains kind of way, not a seeking-help way--are:
  • How balanced, or not, is this?
  • Do you actively make use of this property, and if so, how?
  • What is the best defense against this?
"Show the same loyalty you have in the past, Mandalore. If there is a Mandalorian crusade, let it be for something that will carry your people's memory into the future, so when the time comes when there are no more Mandalorians, than at least their honor will remain."
--Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

August 21, 2013, 03:16:54 PMReply #1

Offline Eclipse

  • Vice Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 350
  • Approval: +16/-5
  • My Eclipse has nothing to do with Force Unleashed.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 03:16:54 PM »
I'll answer your third question. The best defense against this is either have better quality fighters (in similar number) or lot of lancer frigates. Concentrating  their fire, they can eliminate an entire squadron in seconds.
A Member of the Imperial Alignment(Allies With The Shadow Post Empire).

\"Yes, the destruction of Alderaan was regrettable, but so was the destruction of the Death Stars. Are the deaths of millions of Alderaanians?who conspired to overthrow the government?more tragic than the deaths of millions of Imperial soldiers who laid down their lives to defend our way of life? I think not.\"―Antinnis Tremayne


August 21, 2013, 03:25:51 PMReply #2

Offline Lord Xizer

  • Tester
  • Grand Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 3,222
  • Approval: +134/-14
  • Nothing shall withstand my ambition.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 03:25:51 PM »
Now imagine that swarm being made of Coralskippers
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

August 21, 2013, 06:11:37 PMReply #3

Offline Corey

  • Mod Leader
  • Administrator
  • Emperor
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,520
  • Approval: +410/-80
  • Dream Crusher
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 06:11:37 PM »
Quote
In this mod, missile and torpedo armaments in space do not bypass shielding, a near anomaly in the Empire at War community. (A notable exception would be vanilla's diamond-boron missiles.) However, I have come to realize why this is so: it would make fighters way too imbalanced.

No, they tend to not do it out of a combination of not making a change they think is unnecessary, and people think that missiles bypassing shield is canon. On what basis is this unbalanced? When bombers could bypass shields, it just meant bomber swarms could nuke any ship with no recourse and didn't have to worry about shields at all.

On what basis is this change a buff instead of a huge nerf? You even acknowledge that this is a nerf later in your post, so I'm confused as to what you're actually arguing here.

Quote
Think about it. TR fighters have these advantages over their counterparts in the parent game and other mods:
    Almost every fighter carries a projectile weapon. For example, the Republic not only has torpedo-carrying Y-Wings but two effective fighter-bombers (B-Wing and X-Wing) and the missile-armed A-Wing.

You're comparing things as if the properties and relative strengths are the same, which they in fact are not. Missiles and torpedos don't do the same thing in the mod; their flat damage isn't the same, theiur recharge rates aren't the same, and they can't bypass shields, which makes them way less effective against larger ships. The recharge rates in particular are very important, and you seem to have completely disregarded that. You can't say the x-Wing is on par with the B-Wing or any other bomber when they get a single proton torpedo every thirty seconds. If they could bypass shields it would add up because the hardpoints don't regenerate, but with that firing rate most ships would be able to regenerate past it; it's almost negligible unless you're backing it up with some way heavier stuff. You can't just say "this has proton torpedos in the base game and this has proton torpedos in the mod so THEY MUST BE THE SAME THING"

Quote
They come in squads of twelve, as opposed to the 3-5 per squadron elsewhere, meaning better firepower and a longer lifespan.

Again, not necessarily; you need to look at the entirety of the changes and not just compare them on single lines which would make them more powerful. If we had just taken the base stats from the vanilla game and multiplied the number of fighters by 4, then yeah, that would be more powerful. We didn't though. In vanilla, fighters could tank multiple shots from both other fighters and from larger ships. In the mod their health is far lower, so their lifespan is in fact way shorter. You can take an individual fighter out with one shot. And again, you can't compare a single projectile from us to a single projectile from EaW. Fighters do proportionally less damage, once again. Also, I'm pretty sure this is a change almost every single other major mod has made.

Quote
They are launched in huge quantities; a decent-sized carrier can have five or six squadrons. And the main reason this is being changed to a standard active/reserve capacity is not for balance, apparently, but for performance.

If you'd actually read what we've said about this, it's being done for both (and a third reason which I'll get to). However, although fighter spam was still one of the most effective tactis, it's still way less effective than it was it was in the base game. Yes, carriers gave a different avenue for this to be done, but the tactic itself was still more powerful in the base game because fighter squadrons were proportionally more powerful in EaW than in ICW. In EaW if you build a full fleet of X-Wings and Y-Wings as the Rebels, you could beat almost anything as long as you brought one or two Assault Frigates to beat the one or two possible Tartans (which couldn't actually beat that many X-Wings) especially when projectiles could bypass shields. In the mod, if you did the same thing and filled your fleet cap with fighters, you'd lose.

We've highlighted the performance reasons for the staggering over the balancing reasons because I think they're the most impactful of the two, since fighter spam as a tactic is nowhere near as problematic as it was in the basegame, whereas the number of fighters (especially of specific kinds where the models are older and less optimized) was the main cause of poor performance for most people who experienced it. The other aspect to this change was the fact that any fighters were having problems surviving until the end of the battle and we wanted to make sure there were at least some left by the end of a game.

Frankly, all you've done is say "there's more of them so they MUST be more powerful" but you haven't actually given a basis for this, and extrapolated from data that isn't actually true. While there are more of them in the mod than in the base game, they're also far weaker and the spamming tactics from EaW that centred around building them no longer work anywhere near as consistently.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 06:15:20 PM by Corey »
I also have a YouTube channel where I talk about mod development and gaming, do tutorials, and Let's Plays. If you like the content, consider supporting it on Patreon


August 21, 2013, 06:42:25 PMReply #4

Offline Thuellai

  • Brevet Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 66
  • Approval: +3/-0
  • Gold Leader
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2013, 06:42:25 PM »
Fighters are, in my opinion and anecdotal experience, LESS powerful on their own.

However, they are a MORE powerful and necessary complement to capital ships.

Lacking fighter support entirely, or at least a strong complement of lancer frigates, will get you chewed apart quite often as bombers do surprisingly strong shield damage that cap ships will then capitalize on to cripple your ships entirely - likewise, due to accuracy differentials, squadrons of fighters have nearly a free run on unescorted cap ships.  In combination with supporting fire from medium ships like Strike Cruisers, a carrier/frigate combo fleet can be very effective due to the weight of fire you get from their smaller pop-cap requirement.

However, by themselves, fighters are not as effective and are very fragile, and so require much more micromanagement - flying a squadron too close to a lancer frigate that they can't kill in one or two bombing runs is effectively suicide, and screening for enemy interceptors is vital.

One possible exception to this is a Baron Fel-centered EotH fleet which makes use of his considerable bonuses, but even this requires micromanagement (mostly to keep Fel himself alive)

Let's not forget that the number of buildable fighters is largely decreased - aside from the New Republic, most factions can't build both fighters AND bombers, but only a multirole like the Defender or bombers like the Syca.  This definitely affects the ability to fighter spam, although the fact that most fighters are carried now makes them a bit more disposable - losing a squadron no longer largely affects your income.

August 21, 2013, 07:04:59 PMReply #5

Offline Lord Xizer

  • Tester
  • Grand Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 3,222
  • Approval: +134/-14
  • Nothing shall withstand my ambition.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2013, 07:04:59 PM »
I find the fighters to be well balanced
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

August 21, 2013, 07:07:46 PMReply #6

Offline tlmiller

  • Tester
  • Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 2,363
  • Approval: +56/-9
  • Don't turn around you moron, ATTACK!!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2013, 07:07:46 PM »
Yeah, since the mod team turned off bypassing shields, they're much more balanced.  They can still take out a fleet if you're not careful and get careless with antifighter forces, but they won't destroy your capital ships in a single pass or at least leave them a burning wreck.
People should not be afraid of their government...governments should be afraid of their people.

August 22, 2013, 01:02:08 AMReply #7

Offline Lord Xizer

  • Tester
  • Grand Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 3,222
  • Approval: +134/-14
  • Nothing shall withstand my ambition.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2013, 01:02:08 AM »
Indeed
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

August 22, 2013, 02:46:28 AMReply #8

Offline Crisiss

  • Brevet Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 108
  • Approval: +6/-3
  • The weak deserve their fate.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2013, 02:46:28 AM »
Yeah, since the mod team turned off bypassing shields, they're much more balanced.  They can still take out a fleet if you're not careful and get careless with antifighter forces, but they won't destroy your capital ships in a single pass or at least leave them a burning wreck.

I honestly have never used many anti fighter units, you already get a metric fuckton of fighters from everything you would want to field.
"Honor is a fool's prize. Glory is of no use to the dead." - Revan

"The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other poor bastard die for his." - Winston Churchill

"Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust."

"We have drones and satellites and missiles that can pick a mosquito off a target's nose from three thousand miles away. Why do we have these things? Because the military gets an obscene budget every year and they spend it finding the best possible way to kill every living thing they can fit in a blast radius."

"May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't." -General George S. Patton

August 22, 2013, 12:35:36 PMReply #9

Offline Lord Xizer

  • Tester
  • Grand Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 3,222
  • Approval: +134/-14
  • Nothing shall withstand my ambition.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »
I find Lancers and Corvettes very useful against the EotH
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

August 22, 2013, 12:54:23 PMReply #10

Offline Thuellai

  • Brevet Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 66
  • Approval: +3/-0
  • Gold Leader
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2013, 12:54:23 PM »
I find Lancers and Corvettes very useful against the EotH

Doesn't exactly hurt when the Rebels hit you with one of those 'X-Wing x35, B-Wing x22, Y-Wing x40' fleets, either.

August 22, 2013, 02:52:58 PMReply #11

Offline Revanchist

  • Mod Team Member
  • Grand Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 1,473
  • Approval: +42/-5
  • I am Revan reborn. And before me you are nothing.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2013, 02:52:58 PM »
Doesn't exactly hurt when the Rebels hit you with one of those 'X-Wing x35, B-Wing x22, Y-Wing x40' fleets, either.

Or those 40x Quasar, 20x Neb-B fleets.
"History is on the move, Captain. Those who cannot keep up will be left behind, to watch from a distance. And those who stand in our way will not watch at all."
Grand Admiral Thrawn

"But...it was so artistically done."
Grand Admiral Thrawn

Member of the Imperial Alignment


August 22, 2013, 02:59:49 PMReply #12

Offline tlmiller

  • Tester
  • Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 2,363
  • Approval: +56/-9
  • Don't turn around you moron, ATTACK!!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2013, 02:59:49 PM »
Yeah, I don't care what you have, when you are getting attacked by fleets like that, you need to some Lancer/IPV/whatever the EoTH's anti-fighter corvette is in your fleet or you're going to be hurting.
People should not be afraid of their government...governments should be afraid of their people.

August 22, 2013, 03:26:31 PMReply #13

Offline Thuellai

  • Brevet Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 66
  • Approval: +3/-0
  • Gold Leader
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2013, 03:26:31 PM »
Or those 40x Quasar, 20x Neb-B fleets.

>40x Quasar

Oh god.

Quasar Fires are the devil.

August 22, 2013, 04:53:35 PMReply #14

Offline JC123

  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 169
  • Approval: +5/-0
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2013, 04:53:35 PM »
>40x Quasar

Oh god.

Quasar Fires are the devil.

The NR AI has never sent quasar fleets after me yet despite many updates and playthroughs.  I thank my lucky stars every time.
Did you see that?  Know what that cost?  $58,000.  I mean, what a waste.  It wasn't even funny.  That's $58,000 that could have gone to curing leukemia.  Or.  muscular dystrophy.  Or... what does Michael J. Fox have?  That.  Alright, let's watch some damn cartoons.

August 22, 2013, 04:54:29 PMReply #15

Offline jordanthejq12

  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 173
  • Approval: +5/-1
  • RIP, Expanded Universe. You will be missed.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2013, 04:54:29 PM »
Quesars are handy when playing as the NR, however. Actually, you know what is worse? Sixteen Quesars and, oh, say, an Endurance carrier. Much heavier carrying capacity, plus a ship capable of taking on a couple of frigates at a time.

Corey: I realize that was a poorly constructed initial argument. What I'm trying to assert is this: adjusting for less individual firepower and durability, but much heavier numbers and overall availability, fighters in TR are, on the whole, more of a hassle to swat than in vanilla. They are available in the kind of numbers where sheer weight of numbers can--but not always does--overcome any statistical nerfs.

It's also handy (or a curse depending on  when most of said fighters are capable of hurting your big guns. In vanilla you could watch X-Wings try to hit a shielded Star Destroyer and just let them sit there, knowing that the SD's shield recharge would negate any damage the fighters' laser cannons would do. Now, that same matchup and you could be in trouble: one torpedo every thirty seconds, yes, but...twelve X-Wings. You may still win, but you are going to feel that hit. Thank God for octuple barbette turbolasers. (Which, I think, was a stroke of genius: the spread of dual/quad/octuple turbolasers lets them stand a chance against fighters. Of course, that's canon IIRC, so genius on the part of the various people writing EU material.)

Also, semi-related question: are fighters such as X-Wings supposed to be allowed to torpedo each other, or is that a bug? I'd rather not have them wasting valuable projectile shots on TIEs.
"Show the same loyalty you have in the past, Mandalore. If there is a Mandalorian crusade, let it be for something that will carry your people's memory into the future, so when the time comes when there are no more Mandalorians, than at least their honor will remain."
--Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

August 22, 2013, 05:11:06 PMReply #16

Offline Thuellai

  • Brevet Admiral
  • ****
  • Posts: 66
  • Approval: +3/-0
  • Gold Leader
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2013, 05:11:06 PM »
Also, semi-related question: are fighters such as X-Wings supposed to be allowed to torpedo each other, or is that a bug? I'd rather not have them wasting valuable projectile shots on TIEs.

Not a designer, but pretty sure that's intentional.  Furions, for example, rely primarily on missiles to be the superiority fighter they are (and boy are they)

August 22, 2013, 05:19:34 PMReply #17

Offline jordanthejq12

  • Rear Admiral
  • *****
  • Posts: 173
  • Approval: +5/-1
  • RIP, Expanded Universe. You will be missed.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2013, 05:19:34 PM »
Concs are fine. I am specifically bringing up the X-Wing because it is a torpedo craft, and torpedoes, as stated in the manual and used by the base game and just about every mod, are not supposed to be for dogfighting or point-defense use. Otherwise, Y-Wings would be much more powerful than what they are.
"Show the same loyalty you have in the past, Mandalore. If there is a Mandalorian crusade, let it be for something that will carry your people's memory into the future, so when the time comes when there are no more Mandalorians, than at least their honor will remain."
--Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

August 22, 2013, 06:15:02 PMReply #18

Offline Mat8876

  • Vice Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 412
  • Approval: +14/-12
  • Disney stop closing the website down, I mean it.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2013, 06:15:02 PM »
I'm fine with most fighters using their torpedos and missiles against other fighter crafts, it either forces you to field stronger craft or outnumber them.
A Member of the Imperial Alignment(Allies With The Shadow Post Empire).

\\\"Challenge and diversity make us strong. Too much protection can prevent us from learning, from reaching our potential. We can learn from others, but we must also learn from our own experiences. . . and our own mistakes.\\\" Luke Skywalker

\\\"An elegant weapon for a more civilized time, eh? Well, guess what? Times have changed!\\\" RC-01/138


August 22, 2013, 07:06:15 PMReply #19

Offline Lord Xizer

  • Tester
  • Grand Moff
  • *
  • Posts: 3,222
  • Approval: +134/-14
  • Nothing shall withstand my ambition.
    • View Profile
Re: Fighter Balance
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2013, 07:06:15 PM »
A well balanced fleet should always have at least 2 anti fighter ships, thus freeing up YOUR fighters that much faster
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

 

Those working on this mod do so in their own free time and for no pay.
Show your support for them by enabling ads on this site!