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Author Topic: 2.1 and You  (Read 80263 times)

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February 08, 2013, 09:45:27 PMReply #40

Offline Eclipse

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2013, 09:45:27 PM »
But then you got your target destroyed? If so the laser should have stopped shooting. But if it's a huge target(like SSD) it'll keep shooting for a long time in fact
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February 09, 2013, 01:27:17 PMReply #41

Offline Cromagnum

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2013, 01:27:17 PM »
Ok so I had a republic Star Defender (the super) the super laser look out half the shields then fired again for the other half. Then fired 5 more time and took out the hull.

February 09, 2013, 02:31:43 PMReply #42

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2013, 02:31:43 PM »
 
Ok so I had a republic Star Defender (the super) the super laser look out half the shields then fired again for the other half. Then fired 5 more time and took out the hull.

Maybe it just hates space whales as much as I do.
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February 10, 2013, 05:31:06 AMReply #43

Offline Corey

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2013, 05:31:06 AM »
Well the mod is amazing but for this last patch there are a few things that need to be fixed. One, all Heavy shipyards should (I think they were intended too) be able to have Golen 2's.

Why? They were not intended to and we have no intention to change it to that. Ship production levels are not necessarily tied to defense levels. That's why you get some planets that have the inverse as well; they can't build heavy frigate or capital shipyards, but do get Golan II/IIIs, like Coruscant.

Two, the super laser on the eclipse dreadnought is overpowered as hell and while it is that strong in canon it is way more expensive in canon too. So if possible make it so it can't destroy other star dreadnoughts, limit the number that can be fielded (think the limit is 4 right now) down to 1 or 2, or limit its ability to hit anything that isn't actually in front of it.

I'm assuming you mean the Sovereign here since the Eclipse isn't buildable. In any case, the Superlasers are intended to kill superships, so if it isn't (like others have said) we're going to have to fix that. The limit is 4, but that's a lifetime limit, forcing them to spread out with two at a time really wouldn't lower their incidence much, and they're not in a bad position as it is. Their cost is already 30,000 credits and they have a 5 minute build time, so their firepower output over a battle including when a superlaser is used actually pretty much scales with damage output you'd get from a regular capital ship when used against regular capital ships. The ability to destroy a supercap with the superlaser makes sense not just from a canon perspective (where the Eclipse and Sovereign were capable of cracking planets open), but also from a gameplay perspective. Them being able to destroy other spercaps just means that you should therefore avoid getting into battles against them with the Viscount or the Lusankya when you're the NR, and that you should try to get into those battles when you're the IR. We debated having the supercaps be targetable with the laser, and left it how it is for a reason: Take the superlaser out of the picture, and both the Lusankya and the Viscount beat a Sovereign or the Eclipse, hands down. However, the NR also has the better capital ships starting in era 3 as well. This means that for era 3, we're able to have the Sovereigns/Eclipse as a counterbalance to that. They can be used as a way to force New Republic capital ships into a position where their advantages over the ISDs are leveled off. This doesn't really exist in the last two eras, which is part of what makes Era 4 and 5 as the Remnant so much harder.

As for making them only able to fire when facing a target, we'd like to have it that way but ability functions like that aren't moddable.

And lastly, and most importantly, a map that you start with one planet but actually has eras.
There's way too much disparity between starting positions for that to work, and it kind of removes all of the challenge of the one-planet starts to give factions their heroes. Where's the challenge or fun in building up your starting position as the IR or PA when you start with Lusankya, Vengeance and Reaper? It puts the other factions at a huge disadvantage as well.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:33:36 AM by Corey »
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February 10, 2013, 07:35:41 AMReply #44

Offline Slornie

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2013, 07:35:41 AM »
Why? They were not intended to and we have no intention to change it to that. Ship production levels are not necessarily tied to defense levels. That's why you get some planets that have the inverse as well; they can't build heavy frigate or capital shipyards, but do get Golan II/IIIs, like Coruscant.
They aren't meant to work like that? I thought that was the basic system with limited exceptions (such as Coruscant/Muunilinst, etc).

Where's the challenge or fun in building up your starting position as the IR or PA when you start with Lusankya, Vengeance and Reaper? It puts the other factions at a huge disadvantage as well.
Not to mention that if you were playing against an Imperial Remnant AI the era would jump up really quickly due to autoresolve killing off Isard!
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February 11, 2013, 03:41:31 PMReply #45

Offline pmenadue

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2013, 03:41:31 PM »
Fix the freeze bug, or push it out further. I played one mod that pushed it out to 300 or something and it was nice to complete a mission-thing. Has anyone else figured out how to fix this?
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February 11, 2013, 03:56:08 PMReply #46

Offline Enceladus

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2013, 03:56:08 PM »
As we have said multiple times and multiple places we can't remove the freeze issue. It is a bug that is present within the base game that is only made apparent due to the scale of this mod (as well as some other mods). We can only attempt to mitigate it as best as we can. It's not a simple change code line X and the freeze no longer occurs. It also isn't a search through the code of mod ABC to see what they did as the freeze isn't caused by one certain trigger; many factors contribute to when it happens and changing some of these would effectively remove some of the unique gameplay elements we have.

And for the second request:
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 03:59:44 PM by Enceladus »


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February 11, 2013, 05:41:02 PMReply #47

Offline Corey

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2013, 05:41:02 PM »
To expand on what Enceladus said:

I guarantee that mod didn't "figure out how to fix it," they just have less variables, ie less planets or factions. The freeze is an issue with the base game, it's based on how much happens over the course of a game so it'll vary from playthrough to plathrough, within GCs in the same mod, and even between what faction you're playing as in the same Scenario. Basically, the more planets and factions you have, the sooner it'll be. For the vast majority of the GCs in the mod (any of them ~60 planets or under) you've probably got 600 weeks before it'll occur. But again, this can vary. It's more likely in something like Art of War Lite than the Thrawn Campaign, as the latter has only 2 factions in total, while the other has at least 4 active factions. That means instead of just being based on player vs 1 AI, it's got the constant AI vs AI vs AI conflicts as well.

Within ICW, based on our testing there's currently only two GCs where the freeze becomes an issue before the GCs can be finished:

Art of War: This has 3 active factions, and several inactive factions, meaning there's several fronts, several groups that get conquered and reconquered, and 93 planets for that to happen over. Playing as the New Republic and Imperial Remnant, you can usually get up to Week 300-350 because they're the largest groups; you don't have as much back and forth because the player's better at holding onto stuff than the AI, but there's still a considerable area of AI control. With the EotH it tends to be a little sooner because the larger groups are still going back and forth. It's really onlt with the PA in my experience that gets as low as 180-200 because they're so small and out of the way, while lacking the EotH's direct path to cut between the IR andNR (thereby stopping that conflict). By the time they get anywhere, it's already been gone over, which tends to make it more difficult.

From the Ground Up: Because of the smaller starts and 3 active factions, this essentially means every planet is getting conquered at least two or three times before the end, so even though it's on the smaller side it can add up. The freeze tends to occur around 350 in this, but the scenario is small enough that it rarely becomes an issue.


We've already controlled the game flow in FTGU as much as we can before we essentially start to make it seem like it isn't a sandbox, but the freeze is so rare in that that it doesn't matter. IDeally we'd like to try to push it back more in ICW, but again, it's not as simple as "oh well change the <freeze> value from 188 to 99999, it has to be done through the scenario design, without cutting any of the basic content that makes Art of War worth having in the first place (if we cut a bunch of planets and factions, we may as well just cut the whole scenario altogether, which nobody wants). We've experimented with stuff to try to control chokepoints, starting planet and unit distribution, objective planets instead of "capture everything", etc to limit how much pointless back and forth happens, but this is very difficult to do in a sandbox game; there's just a simple baseline freeze date that'll exist as a function of how many planets and factions are in the GC.
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February 11, 2013, 09:33:23 PMReply #48

Offline z741

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2013, 09:33:23 PM »
i agree with corey. im only new to coding, plus school is helping me with that. ive been peeling through the XMLs and im just realizing the time it takes. i know everybody here (including myself) is waiting for the next thing to come out already. but i am also patient because i realize what the mod devs have to do.

corey if you are looking for beta testers for 2.1 or for ascendancy pm me, i tend to have free time outside of school
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February 11, 2013, 09:50:09 PMReply #49

Offline Corey

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2013, 09:50:09 PM »
The issue with developing the GCs and working around the freeze isn't so much the coding itself as the testing. There's a lot of iterative stuff to do, where we can make a few changes, but then in order to see if it helped at all, you have to play for quite some time. Rinse and repeat.

We'll be posting signup threads for the 2.1 and Ascendancy betas when we're a bit closer. The best way to get picked is really just to be active, we tend to try to pick a lot of people.
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February 20, 2013, 03:46:39 PMReply #50

Offline Corey

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #50 on: February 20, 2013, 03:46:39 PM »
The Outtake Video showed where ICW is in the GC selection screen, should be easier to figure out what it is from that.
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February 21, 2013, 10:59:09 PMReply #51

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2013, 10:59:09 PM »
Indeed
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

March 04, 2013, 04:45:53 PMReply #52

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2013, 04:45:53 PM »
The NR Orbital Bombardment uses the old ion cannon bombardment effect and it also is much more powerful than the other factions' OB. It doesn't consist of multiple low accuracy strikes, but rather a single very powerful one. In 2.1, please change this to match the other factions' OB.
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March 05, 2013, 08:28:57 AMReply #53

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2013, 08:28:57 AM »
Actually the NR shouldn't have the Orbital Bombardment as they thought it was unethical. It wasn't done until the battle of Borleias in the Vong War.
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March 05, 2013, 04:51:38 PMReply #54

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2013, 04:51:38 PM »
Actually the NR shouldn't have the Orbital Bombardment as they thought it was unethical. It wasn't done until the battle of Borleias in the Vong War.

I agree that it's true that they never used this tactic against anyone except the Vong (and by then the NR basically didn't exist). However, for gameplay purposes, you can't remove it, that would be major disadvantage. Having said that, I wouldn't object if the OB was restored to the way it was in vanilla though, being just an ion bombardment that does no damage but has a greater area effect.
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

March 05, 2013, 11:07:53 PMReply #55

Offline yutpaeksi

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2013, 11:07:53 PM »
Syndic Destroyer can't perform orbital bombardment, can that be changed for 2.1?
"That's not what the Empire would have done, Commander. What the Empire would have done was build a super-colossal Yuuzhan Vong-killing battle machine. They would have called it the Nova Colossus or the Galaxy Destructor or the Nostril of Palpatine or something equally grandiose. They would have spent billions of credits, employed thousands of contractors and subcontractors, and equipped it with the latest in death-dealing technology. And you know what would have happened? It wouldn't have worked. They'd forget to bolt down a metal plate over an access hatch leading to the main reactors, or some other mistake, and a hotshot enemy pilot would drop a bomb down there and blow the whole thing up. Now that's what the Empire would have done."
―Han Solo, to Vana Dorja

March 06, 2013, 03:21:44 PMReply #56

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2013, 03:21:44 PM »
I agree that it's true that they never used this tactic against anyone except the Vong (and by then the NR basically didn't exist). However, for gameplay purposes, you can't remove it, that would be major disadvantage. Having said that, I wouldn't object if the OB was restored to the way it was in vanilla though, being just an ion bombardment that does no damage but has a greater area effect.

I would agree with this as well as it fits the NRs weak sentimentality of killing as few as possible while still leaving them with a tactical bombardment that can be effective.
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

"The New Order has never fallen. Only the Emperor."-Grand Moff Ardus Kaine

March 07, 2013, 05:49:18 PMReply #57

Offline JC123

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2013, 05:49:18 PM »
I would agree with this as well as it fits the NRs weak sentimentality of killing as few as possible while still leaving them with a tactical bombardment that can be effective.

I know.  It's just so hard to win wars without, say, killing things?
Did you see that?  Know what that cost?  $58,000.  I mean, what a waste.  It wasn't even funny.  That's $58,000 that could have gone to curing leukemia.  Or.  muscular dystrophy.  Or... what does Michael J. Fox have?  That.  Alright, let's watch some damn cartoons.

March 15, 2013, 06:07:31 PMReply #58

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2013, 06:07:31 PM »
I know.  It's just so hard to win wars without, say, killing things?

Well funny you should mention that...
"I do not intend to be the Emperor's servant forever..."-High Inquisitor Jerec

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March 25, 2013, 07:50:32 PMReply #59

Offline Rogue-17

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Re: 2.1 and You
« Reply #59 on: March 25, 2013, 07:50:32 PM »
I think a good addition is a multiplayer GC that allows you to go through the eras. Or even just make "The art of war" a multiplayer GC. Having only the thrawn campaign as the only option gets old fast. Personally i find that GC the best because every aspect of the mod is in it basically. playing one era at a time is alright, but being able to play through all and watch your own multiplayer choices affect the GC eras would be a lot of fun.
Another point is depending on the era different sides have a much bigger adv. mainly b/c they may have a SSD. But if you had all eras in one multiplayer GC its more fair and you will have times of power and in turn so will your opponent.

 

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