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Author Topic: Last Person to Post Wins  (Read 819460 times)

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June 02, 2016, 02:58:49 PMReply #920

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #920 on: June 02, 2016, 02:58:49 PM »
What is the MEANING of winning? The philosophy begins!
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June 02, 2016, 02:59:58 PMReply #921

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #921 on: June 02, 2016, 02:59:58 PM »
What is winning?
just the illusion of the moment
What is the MEANING of winning? The philosophy begins!
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 02, 2016, 04:07:45 PMReply #922

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #922 on: June 02, 2016, 04:07:45 PM »
What is winning?

Life.

June 02, 2016, 06:23:01 PMReply #923

Offline Revanchist

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #923 on: June 02, 2016, 06:23:01 PM »
What is winning?

Life.

Living is just a slow form of suicide.
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June 02, 2016, 08:13:22 PMReply #924

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #924 on: June 02, 2016, 08:13:22 PM »
Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.

June 02, 2016, 09:19:24 PMReply #925

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #925 on: June 02, 2016, 09:19:24 PM »
Life is a sexually transmitted disease with a 100% fatality rate.

Unless of course you learn essence transferrence like so many Sith lords used.
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June 03, 2016, 01:27:56 AMReply #926

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #926 on: June 03, 2016, 01:27:56 AM »
yeah. I think if Vader would know about it palpatine could have been VERY afraid. With a 100% intact body and Vader's forcewielder killing knowledge he would mop the floor with the emperor.
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 03, 2016, 03:18:34 AMReply #927

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #927 on: June 03, 2016, 03:18:34 AM »
Unless of course you learn essence transferrence like so many Sith lords used.

We could quibble for quite some time, I think, on the philosophical question of whether the Sith lord is continuing their own life, or simply seizing control of another.  After all, the Sith's own body is destroyed by the technique (at least in Bane's case, and Palps only used it once the current body was destroyed).  The body, which from a non-Force magic point of view is all that matters, still ends its existence as a functioning unit - whether the neural patterns are being copied in another body or not could be considered irrelevant, as the original body is still dead.

So life - physical life - remains a sexually transmitted disease with 100% fatality, it's just that a Sith has found a way for their consciousness (software) to be copied to new hardware first.  The original computer still stops working. ;)

P.S. I'd be happy to make the similar case that Star Trek transporters actually kill you and create a clone. ;)
« Last Edit: June 03, 2016, 03:23:01 AM by Pali »

June 03, 2016, 01:08:25 PMReply #928

Offline derp

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #928 on: June 03, 2016, 01:08:25 PM »
Unless of course you learn essence transferrence like so many Sith lords used.
Essence Transferrence sounds as if it were a dove shampoo.
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June 04, 2016, 03:12:15 AMReply #929

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #929 on: June 04, 2016, 03:12:15 AM »
We could quibble for quite some time, I think, on the philosophical question of whether the Sith lord is continuing their own life, or simply seizing control of another.  After all, the Sith's own body is destroyed by the technique (at least in Bane's case, and Palps only used it once the current body was destroyed).  The body, which from a non-Force magic point of view is all that matters, still ends its existence as a functioning unit - whether the neural patterns are being copied in another body or not could be considered irrelevant, as the original body is still dead.

So life - physical life - remains a sexually transmitted disease with 100% fatality, it's just that a Sith has found a way for their consciousness (software) to be copied to new hardware first.  The original computer still stops working. ;)

P.S. I'd be happy to make the similar case that Star Trek transporters actually kill you and create a clone. ;)
In that case just for you let me introduce cellprinting. Scientists are able to duplicate organs now with the help pf cells they took when you were a baby(i think still in the womb) and they can use it to basicly rebuild a human body cell by cell.
Which means you always only replace what is necessary and since it IS your own body... well.. Good to live forever huh?
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 04, 2016, 04:49:59 AMReply #930

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #930 on: June 04, 2016, 04:49:59 AM »
In that case just for you let me introduce cellprinting. Scientists are able to duplicate organs now with the help pf cells they took when you were a baby(i think still in the womb) and they can use it to basicly rebuild a human body cell by cell.
Which means you always only replace what is necessary and since it IS your own body... well.. Good to live forever huh?

Well, this touches on an old philosophical question.  To modernize it, consider that you own a car.  Eventually, the brake pads go, so you get new ones.  Eventually, new tires, new transmission, and eventually you end up having replaced every single piece of that car with new equipment - not a single bit of the original remains.  Is it still the same car, or a new one?

What concerns me when applying this to humans is continuity of experience.  To go back to the transporter: when you go through a transporter, the experience of the being that comes out is that they stepped on a pad, saw shiny things, and then the new room came into view.  But how do we know that the same is the experience of the being that goes INTO the transporter?  For all that can be known, the being that walks into the transporter sees the pad, sees lights start to shine, and then... nothing, bam, they're dead, and a new being is created from the matter/energy of the previous body that has a perfect copy of the old being's brain, so despite this new being remembering stepping on the pad, its first actual experience is getting OFF the pad.

If you are replacing my brain with one that is the exact same, down to the quantum level, it will think it is me, and to all external observers there will be no difference between old me and new me.  But it isn't me - it is a copy of me, and MY experience will end when my brain is removed despite the new brain acting exactly the same.  Even if someday we learn to model human brains perfectly and copy their activities in electronic patterns, achieving the Singularity nonsense that seems to be popular these days, this would be a COPY of you, not a transfer of you from one body to the next.  The idea is often presented as "downloading" you into a machine, but a download isn't a transfer process, it is a copying process - we tend to intuitively think of it as a transfer, but the original file is still on the server.

As for replacing a brain piece by piece while maintaining continuity of experience, well, there's no way to know that this is even hypothetically possible for the cerebral cortex.  The rest of the brain replaces itself over time like most of the body, but the cortex sticks with you until the end, and it is where most/all of your personality lies.

The only way you can make this concept work is with souls that aren't at all tied to the physical being and can be transferred - this is the Star Wars essence transfer method.  Since those don't exist, though, I think we're pretty solidly stuck in the far-from-immortal bodies we have, sorry. ;) EDIT: That is, minus taking our brains as they are out of the body and putting us in jars.  That would maintain continuity of experience.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2016, 04:53:54 AM by Pali »

June 06, 2016, 03:53:47 PMReply #931

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #931 on: June 06, 2016, 03:53:47 PM »
sooo what's up with you guys?
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 06, 2016, 05:13:25 PMReply #932

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #932 on: June 06, 2016, 05:13:25 PM »
Damnit, was hoping my last post confused everyone enough that I'd won.

June 06, 2016, 06:17:33 PMReply #933

Offline Revanchist

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #933 on: June 06, 2016, 06:17:33 PM »
Damnit, was hoping my last post confused everyone enough that I'd won.

Actually I quite liked it, but just didn't get around to responding lol.
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June 06, 2016, 08:53:59 PMReply #934

Offline Lord Xizer

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #934 on: June 06, 2016, 08:53:59 PM »
Well, this touches on an old philosophical question.  To modernize it, consider that you own a car.  Eventually, the brake pads go, so you get new ones.  Eventually, new tires, new transmission, and eventually you end up having replaced every single piece of that car with new equipment - not a single bit of the original remains.  Is it still the same car, or a new one?

What concerns me when applying this to humans is continuity of experience.  To go back to the transporter: when you go through a transporter, the experience of the being that comes out is that they stepped on a pad, saw shiny things, and then the new room came into view.  But how do we know that the same is the experience of the being that goes INTO the transporter?  For all that can be known, the being that walks into the transporter sees the pad, sees lights start to shine, and then... nothing, bam, they're dead, and a new being is created from the matter/energy of the previous body that has a perfect copy of the old being's brain, so despite this new being remembering stepping on the pad, its first actual experience is getting OFF the pad.

If you are replacing my brain with one that is the exact same, down to the quantum level, it will think it is me, and to all external observers there will be no difference between old me and new me.  But it isn't me - it is a copy of me, and MY experience will end when my brain is removed despite the new brain acting exactly the same.  Even if someday we learn to model human brains perfectly and copy their activities in electronic patterns, achieving the Singularity nonsense that seems to be popular these days, this would be a COPY of you, not a transfer of you from one body to the next.  The idea is often presented as "downloading" you into a machine, but a download isn't a transfer process, it is a copying process - we tend to intuitively think of it as a transfer, but the original file is still on the server.

As for replacing a brain piece by piece while maintaining continuity of experience, well, there's no way to know that this is even hypothetically possible for the cerebral cortex.  The rest of the brain replaces itself over time like most of the body, but the cortex sticks with you until the end, and it is where most/all of your personality lies.

The only way you can make this concept work is with souls that aren't at all tied to the physical being and can be transferred - this is the Star Wars essence transfer method.  Since those don't exist, though, I think we're pretty solidly stuck in the far-from-immortal bodies we have, sorry. ;) EDIT: That is, minus taking our brains as they are out of the body and putting us in jars.  That would maintain continuity of experience.

So...what you are saying is I should put my brain in a robot body...
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June 06, 2016, 09:27:12 PMReply #935

Offline Helix345

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #935 on: June 06, 2016, 09:27:12 PM »
If we were to replace all the organs in a body, that would include the brain. If it's not your brain, it aint you.

June 07, 2016, 02:57:03 AMReply #936

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #936 on: June 07, 2016, 02:57:03 AM »
So...what you are saying is I should put my brain in a robot body...

That's it exactly.

Of course, this would need to be a robot body that is programmed to pump adrenaline, endorphins and various other chemicals into the brain to simulate the body's interactions with it for your personality and your reactions to stimuli to still not be radically altered by the changeover.  You'd also still have to eat, sleep and breathe to maintain the brain, and it would still be susceptible to its own degeneration over time, so... you wouldn't be gaining much.  By the time we've got the biotech knowledge required to do something like this, we'd probably be better off maintaining the body through organ replacements, genetic therapy, nanomachines, cybernetic implants and the like.

June 07, 2016, 04:24:14 PMReply #937

Offline kucsidave

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #937 on: June 07, 2016, 04:24:14 PM »
In fact, the human DNA actually stores more prominent memories of a body(meaning sicknesses and stuff or other dangers) to be able to protect the body more. Knowing this, even if you change your brain the body is still you and it remembers being you. also since memories are nothing but certain brainstructure and connections between braincells and cemical reactions within it, if you can analyze a brain in an atomic level you can make a 100% copy of it.
Therefore that brain being also you in 100%.
I know the technology still have to advance much for this, but the possibility is still open.
Also your car metaphor does not stand to a cellprinted organ or limb or whatever. Since those are created by your own cells, just outside your body those are actually belong to you.
To make the car example, if you replace all parts of a car it might be a brand new one, but if you take the broken metal, melt it and create a new part from the old one and use nothing else, it is still the same car. You only use the very same material what built it up in the first place. you are using the same atoms and in the same form, therefore it is still the same.
Also since you consider the "brain" you, but I think more like the memories you have(what I really thinks makes a person) those can be stored be readable at this very moment. it is just incredibly costly(12 400$ for every MB of memory), though also 41 gramms of DNA can store 1 000 000 GB. What do you think, how many memory can be stored in one's body?
"He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster.
And if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee." - Friedrich Nietzsche

June 07, 2016, 06:30:12 PMReply #938

Offline Pali

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #938 on: June 07, 2016, 06:30:12 PM »
Quote
In fact, the human DNA actually stores more prominent memories of a body(meaning sicknesses and stuff or other dangers) to be able to protect the body more.

Please provide a source to support this claim or I have to call BS.  As far as I know, your DNA doesn't change because of illnesses (outside of very, very specific illnesses that themselves alter your DNA).  Your immune system learns from and adapts to diseases you suffer, through production of different types of cells aimed at fighting specific threats, but this isn't any DNA-based change.  You'll get epigenetic changes as you age, but those aren't changes to the coding itself.

Quote
Therefore that brain being also you in 100%.

No, it is simply identical to me, but that does not make it me.  The trick here is that two things can be identical, yet distinct.  If I copy a file, the copy is exactly the same as the first file - but the first file still exists separate from the new file.  From an outside perspective there may be no way to tell us apart (outside of us not inhabiting the same location in space-time), but from MY perspective, I am me and nothing else is, and my perspective is what concerns me (as I said, continuity of experience - the moment it is broken, I am dead and a new being has taken my place, even if that new being is exactly like me and thinks it is me).

Consider the following: B - B.  These letters are physically identical, they have the same meaning and uses - but would you say I only typed one letter?  Is that the most accurate way to describe it?  Or is the more accurate way to say that I created two identical, but distinct, copies of the letter "B"?  If a perfect clone of you is created, unless you are seeing through its eyes and experiencing what it experiences, then it is not you because the instant it begins to exist your experiences become divergent and it stops being identical.

Quote
Also your car metaphor does not stand to a cellprinted organ or limb or whatever. Since those are created by your own cells, just outside your body those are actually belong to you.
To make the car example, if you replace all parts of a car it might be a brand new one, but if you take the broken metal, melt it and create a new part from the old one and use nothing else, it is still the same car. You only use the very same material what built it up in the first place. you are using the same atoms and in the same form, therefore it is still the same.

Ah, but these are two different things.  Cell printing uses your cells as guidelines, as an instruction manual, but it is using new material to make new parts all the same.  The machine isn't breaking down your stomach and rebuilding it, it is taking a piece of your stomach and building a new one around it based on it.  Even if it was simply growing a new stomach from your cells in a petri dish, however, that still doesn't make it the same object as the stomach currently in your gut, no matter if it is absolutely identical or not.  You'd be able to very, very clearly demonstrate this during the replacement surgery, as one stomach is taken out and the other is put in - clearly, two different organs here.  That they are physically identical does not stop them from being distinct objects - their coordinates in space-time will always be different.

The real question here regarding identity is whether it applies to the whole or to the components.  I think it applies to both.  All things are just assemblages of smaller things - when we say we create something, all we're really doing is taking already-existing things and putting them together in a certain way.  I don't really create a table, I simply arrange four long pieces of wood with a flat one in a certain manner and this new arrangement we call a table - because discussing these components is now most accurately done by including their specific arrangement with each other rather than treating them as solitary objects.  But this arrangement itself now exists, in a specific location and interacting with things in ways that its components would not on their own.  However, when you detach a leg from this table, the arrangement is lost - the table is destroyed.  Re-attaching the leg doesn't stop the table from having been destroyed - it means you're assembling a new table with the same arrangement and components the old one had.

The fun part is that you CAN replace parts of the table and have it be both the same and not the same table, depending on whether you're looking at the components or the whole, so long as the general arrangement is not destroyed at any point.  From the perspective of the whole, I am the organism that has been growing for the last few decades, because the organism isn't defined by its parts so much as how those parts interact (and the continuation of that interaction).  From the perspective of the components, I am not at all the same person, as the vast majority of the matter making up my body a decade ago is no longer present in my body, nor do I think or act in exactly the same manner I did then.  Both perspectives are correct.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 06:54:48 PM by Pali »

June 07, 2016, 07:56:04 PMReply #939

Offline tlmiller

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Re: Last Person to Post Wins
« Reply #939 on: June 07, 2016, 07:56:04 PM »
From the perspective of the components, I am not at all the same person, as the vast majority of the matter making up my body a decade ago is no longer present in my body, nor do I think or act in exactly the same manner I did then.  Both perspectives are correct.

From that perspective, you're already not yourself.

0% of the skin (largest single portion of your body) from 10 years ago is there today.  0% of the stomach lining as well.  0% of the blood.  0% of the hair & nails.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2016, 08:02:23 PM by tlmiller »
People should not be afraid of their government...governments should be afraid of their people.

 

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