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Messages - t78

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121
True R.e: factions. Keep forgetting to do the Thrawn Campaign.....

As for Lancers, guess I need to build more X-Wing squadrons (I tend to lose them all in every battle *winces*) and hit fleets before they retreat to the safety of system infrastructure.

I've noticed that the graphics are superior to the latest star craft, in many ways.  *chuckles* Really makes the dogfights worth watching!

122
"Part of the problem with doing that in the Republic/CIS is they don't have quite as many options as, say, the Empire. It's actually more difficult to get to a full faction roster in the first place, especially for the CIS."

This is true. Might one or two 'flavor' units be doable instead?

A choice between clones or these:  http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Special_Tactics_trooper

For the CIS, a generic biological trooper or droids. Also: one significant non-droid ship.

Other than that...  perhaps some starter systems might have consuler modifed cruisers, cloakshapes and dreadnought heavy cruisers. A very limited 'premilitarisation' roster (and stuff some have already included in their imagined clone roster). Special Tactics troopers on the ground. Okay for defence, but little else.

Light shipyards can build these forces but little else. Thus you rely on Kuat/ Rothana for full clone roster (which they have straight away), until you build heavier shipyards/factories elsewhere.

For CIS, some non-buildable cloakshapes and consulers (republic forces possessing slightly divided loyalties, etc)... but these are very rare. They would be quickly expended and replaced by munificents, recusants, and lucrehulks.

CIS also has to industrialise. They have more initial shipyards that can make lucrehulks, munificents, etc.... but no shipyard that can make them all at once.

That's probably still overambitious, but hopefully slightly more realistic in possibilities.

123
Some thoughts:

Making the Lancer much rarer- they tear through fighters and bombers, but then thus completely neutralize the NR's main strength. Making it an occasional super unit would present a challenge on some worlds, but allow the NR to occasionally use fighters in a battle without seeing more than 50% rates of attrition. Endless Lancer reinforcements from a shipyard can get impossible to wear down.

Maybe only one or two shipyard reinforcements?

Perhaps a few systems where there can be no infrastructure? Thus golan spam and shipyards calling in endless reinforcements would be slightly rarer. 

Some more early era NR v IR scenarios sans Pentastar? If they are meant to be neutral, it seems a little weird I keep getting pincered by both the Reaper and Lusankaya.

124
I'd imagine an isd era would have them just as four or five hero units with the first T.I.E model, not the Ln version, to have at least some difference between them and ICW. As small an easter egg as possible without overdoing it.

Personally, I was very intrigued by the suggestion that pre-clone wars conflicts would be looked at. Stark-Hyperspace War battles? Kaloth Battlecruisers? Republic special forces and Tarkin's paramilitary? That would be different.

Come to think of it, how is combat different? Are fighters more/ less important? Cruisers? etc..

I keep imagining a progressions system where with each era/ conflict, you graduallly determine how the seperatists and the republic re-militarise. What ratio clone/non-clone/ droid do you have as troops? All clone? All droid? Non-clone biologicals as auxilliaries? Or the other way round? Quick Spaarti cylinders or the more-stable Kamino process? Converted freightors for the seperatists or specialised proper warships?

Perhaps you could choose a tech tree, or it could be chosen via specific actions like its a strategy rpg? It would be like mass effect, only after you've saved a planet, instead of getting a relationship with a crewmember, you get an army instead!

(I've done some thinking about this, and I can't see how it would be impossible- a large tech tree with 'branches' that can't all be accessed at once doesn't seem impossible....the warlords could end up with very different rosters depending on what they conquer)

I guess I'm trying to suggest a compromise made from everyone's ideas. Of course it depends on the scale of the thing and the plans of the team, so we won't know for sure for some time.




125
I freely admit being dazzled with what you guys have accomplished already!   ;)

In all seriousness though, I am still trying to learn how things work, so I apologize if I have any excessively grandious ideas.

126
All good points!

Though I would argue that the Judicial Forces have to be doing something during the clone wars. What are all the non-clone republic citizens doing? They can't just be twiddling their thumbs or in support roles.

Perhaps native forces on both sides for planets could be beefed up, whilst the majority of the rep/seb mobile forces are clone/droid.

127
Thankyou for your responses! Its very interesting to see the internal logic of the mod, and its all very impressive.

In light of this, in the unlikely event that pirates and civilian militia were added, it could only be as a set of units randomly summoned by a player (perhaps clicking on a build-button that will bring in a random unit from a list after building a pirate haven/ militia point/ whatever). These would be cheap, but being pirates you'd have to pay them off, not sell them if you regretted summoning them. You might also face the risk of randomly summoning useless die-wings if you try and 'build' too many of the better uglies like y-ties, x-ties and x-ceptors (in order of ascending usefulness).

Thus the player can use these craft if they are desperate/ need a temperary meat shield, but gets punished if they go too far.

Of course, ALL of this is moot/academic. Pirates, corporates and militias would clog everything up, and the Ai would spam them unnecessarily, best to avoid them.

It makes for an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.

Anyways, I'll try and stick to more informed, non-pirate, suggestions from now on.

128
I think the Neutron Star is introduced at the end of the clone wars as well, perhaps as a carrier. Will check wookiepedia when my internet is better.

Two things that I've often thought about with regards to late republic/ early empire:

T.I.E fighters- the originals, before TIE/LN. Introduced as a cutting edge fighter to replace the V-Wings after the end of the clone wars, yet plentiful in number. It would be interesting (and weird) to see ties as the fastest, most powerful fighters in game. Perhaps as a very late 'what if?' unit, like the Bothan Assault Cruiser in ICW.

Secondly,

It would be interesting to see non-clone organics on both sides. Probably primarily represented as infantry (precursers to the imperial army infantry? What would seperatist organic infantry look like?) and fighters (Pursuer gunships? Cloakshapes?). The Essential Guide makes it very clear that organics are found on both sides in significant numbers. TR3 would give a chance to flesh them out.

Just some thoughts.

129
First off, all of what I am about to say is based on the assumption that Maldrood and Eriadu will get some sort of tech progression like the other factions. If this is not so, then forget all of what comes below.

With that out the way, here goes…


Generally, the Imperia Remnant’s roster doesn’t change much. Up until era 4, it has ssds in one form or another, defenders and scimitars come and go, but retains imperials and victories and a good complement of frigates. Even in era 5 it has these craft with a few other older ships. The land roster is mostly unchanged. Generally it seems that the remnant’s dire straits occur from territory losses rather than the roster changes. An isd versus a nebula is survivable. Two is preferable, but they can’t produce those kinds of numbers.


For the warlords, I saw an opportunity to create something different, that not only allows for an increase in difficulty for players as technology is lost, but to show these factions diverging from the remnant in philosophies and capabilities, gradually becoming different powers in their own right. Furthermore, I saw in these factions a chance to show what remains after Daala scoops up most of their equipment, post Tsoss beacon massacre. Essentially showing the post- civil war warlords without putting too much effort into yet another imperial faction. 

Perhaps most importantly, to do something really daring, and actually having the build bar significantly decrease in units. If even the suggestions below don’t work, I really would argue for a loss of capitals and other large craft to minimise the choices for the warlord players as times get tougher.

Maldrood provides the most obvious changes. A faction partially dependent on pirates, it seems likely that they would depend on them SLIGHTLY more as they lose equipment. Wookipedia makes it obvious enough that the warlords and renegade elements after the P-G treaty eventually turn semi-piratical (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Attacks_on_Imperial_holdouts).
On the other hand, it is NOT explicitly a ‘pirate faction’, as Corey has made clear. Non-imperial equipment would NOT have to be pirate aligned, it could possibly include law enforcement craft and corporate security forces. I personally am sick of seeing other mods suggest that pirates could be an organised force. Nonetheless, its imperial flavour would be heavily diluted as it scrambles for equipment- and given that there are now 6 factions with imperial equipment, I would absolutely be arguing for some factions to change over time.

The 5th era would thus represent those left behind by Daala. The ultra-diehards (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Replacement_warlord). They might have old cloakshape fighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/CloakShape_fighter/Legends), Pursuers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Pursuer-class_enforcement_ship), and Razor fighters (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Razor_Fighter), depending on where such craft are generally made and used. Certainly the invids made use of uglies other than the tie clutch, so they might have access to those (though those are pirate craft, so probably not).
Essentially, you get hyperspace capable fighters like the remnant’s preybirds, but these are immeasurably inferior. On the other hand, they might build very durable craft, irrespective of speed or firepower, dog-fight capable corvettes, to prevent further equipment losses. They might also have shuttles to steal or scavenge (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Assault_Shuttle) ships of frigate size and below after they have been reduced to low health- without capitals they would need to do everything to survive.
If a change in heroes post-Delvardus was appropriate, the replacement warlords page above makes it clear that Brakiss and the Shadow Academy sought help from the warlords- a mobile barracks building dark jedi? Whatever, thought the academy looked aesthetically impressive at least.



Remember, in Dark Saber the warlords are so cash strapped that 15 or so isds is seen as a significant force. Harrsk is proud of making one star destroyer on his own, and Delvardus, one of the most powerful warlords, has focussed all his material into the Night Hammer. Substantial, yes, but he is still comparatively limited in other forces, as Daala comments. This is around era 4. It seemed to me that taking away the ability to make isds and vsds in the final era would show how low these warlord fortunes have fallen. Yes, it would make things immeasurably harder, but every faction otherwise has capitals, and these ones would also do so prior to the last eras. 
Eventually Maldrood would be extremely distinctive. Some Ties and maybe a few older imperial frigates with non-imperial equipment filling the rest of the meagre roster. No capitals. Extremely difficult to use as faction. For those that might disagree, consider it a challenge- how skilled are you?

(and yes, conquering the galaxy and retaining this roster might seem off, but Pelleaon can do the same and be incapable of building tectors or SSDs. Artistic license has to be used some time)



I was also wondering how Eriadu would progress. Their roster seems slightly more geared towards rare or experimental units. Would a declining Eriadu faction slowly turn to more advanced yet rarer units, becoming unable to sustain their industrial base or defend it?

Then I came across this:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IGV-55_surveillance_vessel

Something used for recon, crewed by lobot-type cyborgs. Perhaps instead of probe droids, eriadu might have this, revealing units in surrounding systems (but very expensive).

It hit me- Eriadu would devolve towards tech solutions that reflect automation. Expensive cyborg infantry and officers (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/LT-319) supplementing stormtroopers, manning awacs ships and other craft, and a greater use of droids (might they be able to hack and take over droid units as a special ability?). Such craft might slowly develop more unique features and special abilities compared to other factions, with droid crewed vessels being outwardly similar to other warlord ships, being cheaper but slightly less powerful (reflecting the smaller but less capable crew on board). Might dark troopers and tie-droids be used as well? Perhaps cyborg units, both in space and on land, might have a special ability that reveals the map or a unit for a very short amount of time (due to their hacking/recon abilities).

Ultimately, the nadir of Eriadu would be era 4 and 5- the remnants that Daala couldn’t hoover up, using a mixture of very cheap droids that are not very good (these? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Terror_Droid http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nek/Legends http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Warcrawler), and extremely capable tech that can only be produced in small numbers (like this? http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nemesis-class_gunship More powerful and tougher than a republic gunship, but less manoeuvrable, more expensive and with a build limit).


One final thing to add to this- I keep seeing people recommend clone wars stuff. Surely there’s plenty of old imperial equipment like the TIE/gt (ground-targeting) starfighter (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/TIE/gt_starfighter) that could be used instead? This example would be a faster more numerous yet less powerful/ weaker tie bomber, perhaps replacing the tie bomber for a particularly resource-strapped faction (PA?).


These are just some thoughts, and they are probably too elaborate, non-canon and would add to the mod’s loading lag for minimal gain. Nonetheless, I thought I’d put these things out just in case people found something useful in them.  Is it ok to discuss this and hack out something from this that works?

If none of this is useful (though no matter what, I stand by the idea of taking away capitals and reducing the build bar in eras 4 and 5 for the warlords) then feel free to tell me to stop posting ideas. I’m not keen on forcing Corey to wearily crush every uninformed idea again and again. I don't like sounding unreasonable.

And that's it for now! Cheerio!

130
Discussion, Suggestions & Feedback / Re: Suggestions for 2.1
« on: February 25, 2013, 03:20:35 PM »
Perhaps making some era advances / regressions with  ground units? I would suggest the bipedal war droids for the empire (era 3) that are present in Dark empire 2, but I'm not sure if they would be difficult to animate.

I presume the team doesn't want another "tank" for the empire then. As good as the ATAT is, there doesn't seem to be any heavy imperial unit with all-round firign arcs. Maybe that's the intended achilles heel for their army. If not, might I make a suggestion for them for one last tank unit?

One small idea was a new gc in which the NR had a line of planets leading to a line of imperial (era 3) planets (or a rough corridor). If its not too difficult to code (probably is, but I might as well suggest this) have a structure in orbit around byss at the end of the imperial corridfor in the shape of the galaxy gun. This produces warheads (so its just a large shipyard) which cannot be seen anywhere except on the gc map. they are also unkillable and cannot be interacted with except by the empire player on the gc map. Said warheads can be sent to an NR system and be used in the manner of the death star in the original EAW, destroying the system. What makes theme different is that they are expended upon use. Essentially the aim of the gc is to fight your way by hook or by crook to byss and destroy the galaxy gun factory. the empire player has to defend whilst having the option of using these (expensive) warheads to destroy NR held worlds. I'm only suggesting this for any perceived novelty, and it would be a one-off gc. Otherwise, its just a useless superweapon that has no place in the mod.  

I might perhaps suggest the use of world devastators as a kind of mobile mining structure- place above an enemy world and you get a small cash bonus per turn. The NR would have to drive it off to reduce the funding the empire gets (they are taking resources after all). nothing else and hopefully nothing fancy. Same as the above however, this is only a suggestion and intended for a unique era 3 unit- NOT a silly all conquering superweapon (having played all the command and conquers up to RA3 I have good experiance of how annoying those things can be).

As regards missions- I'd suggest an ambush of rogue squadron by the corrupter at alderaan for isaard's era. Take rogue squadron to alderaan (or the corrupter if you are the empire) and fight the empire with that squadron and maybe two more x-wing squadrons. discover and capture the alderaanian war frigate if you scout around to even the odds. Victory comes when convarian is killed or driven off- empire forces would be the corrupter and an extra interdictor cruiser.

zsinj era- razor's kiss mission, already suggested.

daala's era- take the knight hammer to yavin with a ground force, where there could perhaps be ground forces made up with slightly more powerful jedi than usual, but nothing else. Eliminate them to win. The NR mission for this would be to take han, luke etc there to the ground and have the imperials launch a ground invasion. fight them off with the extra jedi to win.

era 3 might perhaps see (as a mission) palpatine ordering the assault on new alderaan- a straight up ground assault with only the resources he gives you. empire attacks, NR defends.  

pelleaon's eras. send three star destroyers through a secret route to mon calamari, attack any NR forces there. perhaps give them cloaking devices like in the hand of thrawn duology for this single mission. the NR mission is to be surprised by them and have to fight them off.

The empire of the hand mission in that gc would be to send clawcraft squadrons to various locales, and "buzz" IR/NR craft to gather intel on them. Completion of this (and bringing the surviving craft home) perhaps merits extra cash or gc map intel.

I have some ideas for the PA, including a "what if" tech level advancement- perhaps a craft or two could be introduced in eras 3-5 and the description being "Khaine's engineers were on the verge of introducing vehicle X before shadow hand and the upheaval of khaines death forced the design to be abandoned" or something. Perhaps, in the same way that the empire have novatroopers that can be built only twice, the PA could have the Nemesis gunship from The Force Unleashed- can only be built twice, complements the LAATI but is horrendously expensive? Just a thought.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nemesis-class_gunship

Anyways, that's my two cents. Hope that proves a little useful.

131
Some time ago I saw a small post by someone on the use of new republic and imperial units for ground attacks. It was detailed, but I thought I could also provide a good explanation for large attacks and how to use the units of each side in different ways, and to perhaps show that all ground forces can be used in both fast charges, slow advances and hit and run attacks. Apologies if this is a lot of information, but I wanted to set it out in as much detail as possible so as to help get my thoughts across, so I hope I haven?t broken any forum etiquette in providing this much information. On that note, here goes:

The Empire:

The 2m Saber can be used as an all round armoured vehicle- especially on flat-landed worlds like Chandrilla. Moving them in a line abreast to counter other armour, anchoring the line against hostile advances and then concentrating them on the most dangerous groupings of enemy tanks is possible due to their excellent speed and manoeuvrability. A group of ATATs hanging back to provide support with their longer range fire is a bonus. For flat worlds there is no batter tank than the 2m for the empire- it can allow faster advances across terrain than might be thought possible with this particular faction.

Using dropships you can then deposit nova troopers where needed in the line to force a breakthrough and then drop gun-groups of e-webs where a stationary defence gun is capable of countering large infantry groups such as missile launcher infantry. Dropship firepower then supports the 2msWith the IDS and the 2m, it is possible for flying columns to engage new republic tb3s and tb4s with minimal risk of being outflanked- something that is a danger to all other imperial armour. It is even possible to use a rebel style strategy with these craft- attack, drop infantry, then recover them and retreat to allow shields to recharge.

For worlds with more uneven terrain, using the ATATs to advance and chicken walkers just ahead tom allow for greater line of sight for the ATATs is a good strategy. Then dart some 2ms between the ATATs and engage enemy armour until they are noticed, then drop them back, allowing the ATATs to provide covering fire.

Alternatively, using tank droids to slowly advance, and provide century tanks on the flanks allows perhaps more ?instant hit? killing power rather than wearing then down in the style of 2ms and ATATs. Stormtroopers and missile shock troopers then move up the canyon to finish of any remnants. This requires the knowledge that you have the right forces for the job however, due to the lack of a possibility of retreat, these units being too slow to do so under fire- and unable to return fire while retreating. Using century tanks to pin an engagement down to allow juggernaughts to arrive on the scene and then deploy plex troopers can allow for uncertainties in what forces you are facing, the juggernaught scan  provide cover for a retreat, and the speed away also.
Placing choke points of artillery and e-webs just around the corners of canyons usually deters light units such as kirovs and t2bs, with perhaps some flying squadrons of 2ms to deal greater firepower in support of a retreating forces.

Lastly, the use of stormtroopers to anchor a line, then elite novatroopers to punch through weakened enemy units (or reinforce where you are losing) seems reminiscent of the use of the napoleonic ?old guard?. I remember one developer here saying that using elite units would be pointless as no one would build the regular infantry, but here it seems to have worked brilliantly- same goes for raptor/stormtrooper combinations for Zsinj. Using regulars that are cheaper but still effective allows you to place where you want your elites at leisure.  If elites were perhaps slower than the (more lightly equipped) regulars, then the regulars would be more useful for anchoring the line, while the elites punch through. Of course, as stated, they both seem to do this well already.

The New Republic:

The New Republic does not seem to be exclusively a hit and run force anymore. Certainly it is possible to do a variant of the armoured charge mentioned above, albeit slower and with heavier, fewer units. T3bs advance in a line, with squadrons of v-wings poised to lend support where armoured groups are in danger of being overwhelmed. Behind the t3bs come crack groups of t4bs, to either tackle more powerful units such as ATATs, megamaser tanks or floating fortresses, or exploit breakthroughs, leapfrogging the t3bs and allowing the latter to be repaired by specialists. Freerunners can provide hit and run support , with t2bs serving as armoured scouts due to their speed and shield capacity.

For more uneven terrain, using groups of t2bs to scout and freerunners to provide flexible firepower against any threat, with t3bs to provide heavier fire against the heaviest units is a good strategy, especially against units that cannot be outflanked due to canyons. Proton torperdo artillery is supreme in these situations against groups of units cooped up in canyons.

Infiltrators can concentrate their sniping power on one unit fighting in the infantry line, allowing the regular infantry to make a break, in the manner of raptors or novatroopers.

The Empire of the Hand:

For the Empire of the Hand, I feel that one can use rail gun tanks as the main line force, with mmts providing support and to be protected in the case of a retreat. Air straekers range up and down the line attacking weak points, and rapid fire tanks wear down hostiles that  have been weakened by the rail gun tanks and then passed over so as to deal with healthier threats. Alternately, a use of rapid fire tanks and kirovs (in the same way one might use tie- maulers and chariots for the empire or the various light tanks for the new republic/ pentastar alignment) to provide quickly delivered but relatively expendable firepower to small groups of advancing hostiles could be a good strategy if retreating while wearing down is your style.

Phalanx-commandos can perhaps concentrate their sniping power on one unit fighting in the infantry line, allowing the regular infantry to make a break, in the manner of raptors or novatroopers.

The Pentastar Alignment:

The Pentastar Alignment I would say is similar to the empire, though the hailfire artillery and powerful LAATs are an enigma to me so far. How would they make playing the alignment different? More organic artillery support, and a greater use of bombardment from the LAATs than one might do with v-wings and dropships? On that I am not entirely sure.

Storm-commandos can perhaps concentrate their sniping power on one unit fighting in the infantry line, allowing the regular infantry to make a break, in the manner of raptors or novatroopers.


Furthermore the manual says that the 2ms have a beam cannon, and they do not in the game itself. Are they supposed to, and are they as powerful as their alignment counterparts? Or is the manual entry an error? 

Some time ago someone provided a good quick but still detailed explanation of the use of enforcers, vindicators and carracks on this forum that has been invaluable to me. Any chance of doing that for ground craft? My own thoughts here would surely be greatly inferior to anyone that has been playing for longer, so if anyone were to want to provide a better commentary on ground forces, I certainly would welcome that. Lastly, are ground forces being concentrated by the computer on land and thrown at the player rather than sent piecemeal for anyone? The computer on my version (latest) seems to only send them in one unit type at a time at the moment, the occasional major build up excepted.
Anyways, that?s me done. Thankyou for reading, and congratulations on such a well-thought out mod!

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