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Star Wars Discussion / The Last Jedi (SPOILERS SPOILERS LOTS OF SPOILERS YOUR FAULT SPOILERS)
« on: December 20, 2017, 05:04:21 AM »
So, since we should have somewhere that we can discuss the newest entry to the saga openly, I figured I'd get the ball rolling. I seem to be in somewhat of a minority opinion here in that I very much enjoyed the new movie, and I figured I'd break down why to get things started. So, in my opinion based on a single viewing (future viewings may alter these opinions)...
The great:
-The entire scene with Snoke, Rey, Ren, and the Red Guards from start to finish
-Luke projecting himself to the salt planet
-Yoda
-The hyperspace ram - one of the most beautiful shots in all of Star Wars
-Rey and Ren being connected and their conversations
-Poe prank calling Hux was fucking AWESOME
-The acting of all the main characters - everyone gave their A-game here and it showed
-FUCKING SHIELDS ON SHIPS EXIST AND WE SEE THEM!
The good:
-Finn's suicide charge as he finally finds something he can willingly devote himself to (alongside the utter failure of the falling-apart speeders vs top-line military vehicles) - though I'm torn on whether or not I think he should've been allowed to die trying, as that would've been a very powerful moment but would also have left the character feeling somewhat short-changed in my mind; if he'd died there I know I'd have come out having wanted more of him and disappointed (not sad, disappointed) that there wouldn't be, and I think that'd have been the wrong last feeling to leave me with regarding him
-Poe's arc as he learns that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
-Rose was adorable
-Chewie and the porgies (or whatever they're called) was hilarious and adorable
-Luke's arc as Rey and Yoda remind him that utter failure isn't always the end
-Leia showing she's got some Force tricks up her sleeves too
-Rey coming to define her own place in things rather than still asking for someone else to tell her what it is, and accepting the mantle of a new sort of post-Jedi force user (though this could've been a bit better handled, I still really liked how she was done here, particularly the apparent fact that her parents were nobodies; I hated all theories that she was the child of someone super important, and I really hope they don't backtrack on this one in Ep. IX because not everything has to be about the fucking Skywalkers)
-Hux starting to draw his blaster before Ren wakes up and clearly resisting Ren assuming the Supreme Leader mantle - lots of ground to grow there in Ep. IX
-I really liked that Del Toro's character was NOT a scoundrel-with-a-heart-of-gold; he was just a scoundrel, and had the movie tried to redeem him in the short time we had with him it would've felt forced. Han coming back after everything in ANH worked - Del Toro's character turning good would not have
The meh, could be better:
-The Rose-Finn romance didn't feel earned, but then again, not everyone expresses affection the same way, and Rose definitely geeked out enough on meeting Finn and showed enough social anxiety issues that I can somewhat buy a fangirl thinking she's in love with a personal hero she finally spends some time with
-Snoke could've used a fair bit more characterization before being killed off, but I suspect he was always intended as a red herring of sorts, and that the whole point of the character was to lead us to expect a Vader-turning-on-the-Emperor moment of redemption for Kylo Ren; instead we got a dark side apprentice legitimately killing his master to seize the mantle rather than to change sides - and in truth, it's not like the original trilogy gave us any deep character work for the Emperor either
-The casino planet storyline I actually didn't mind all that much, but it didn't mesh with the rest of the film well, and what it achieved I think could've been achieved through other means. It got Rose and Finn on the Mega SD so they could participate in the climax, it gave them an adventure together so the Rose-Finn pairing didn't feel entirely fake, and it built on the kind of nuanced look at the galactic wars introduced during the prequels and Clone Wars series: that there are people who benefit greatly from this struggle without sharing any of the risks, and that want the wars to never end because they keep lining the pockets of profiteers, and that the wars don't just happen purely because ideologically-opposed beings can't find a middle-ground. Instead, they often happen in no small part because many have a vested interest in keeping the fighting happening. This is good stuff, but I don't think it was handled as well as it could have been by any stretch, and this was the only part of the movie that I felt dragged.
-Much as I liked the hyperspace ram, it should've been Ackbar as the admiral in charge of the suicide run, not some lady I'd never seen before
-BB-8 felt somewhat underutilized to me - I enjoyed every moment with him still, but he didn't quite live up to the charm he had in TFA
-I understand the point of the end scene with the kid on the planet symbolizing a new Rose, a new hope, a new rebellion/resistance to the harshness of the galaxy, but it still felt somewhat tacked on to me
The bad:
-The bomber run against the dreadnought - despite what many will think, yes, a ship under powered flight above a planet CAN just drop bombs that way assuming that down for the bomber points close-to-directly at the planet (once detached from the ship the bombs will still be accelerated "down" by gravity while the ship's own acceleration will keep it on a "straight" path, leaving the bombs to "fall" relative to the ship), but it felt wrong nonetheless and I'd have greatly preferred it to feel more like a battle in space without gravity playing any apparent role
-Leia surviving being blown out into space. Yes, this contradicts one of my goods above, but I think showing Leia still had significant Force powers could have been achieved without squandering this PERFECT way to kill the character - Kylo deciding not to kill her and then her dying anyway because of an attack he's a part of would have been a wonderful thing for him, and the audience, to go through. There's a bit of hindsight at play here, as I suspect she was intended to die in Ep. IX and reality intervened, but damn it that would've been a great send-off
-edit: One more bad: Phasma. There was some utility in terms of Finn's arc to have him face off against her, but it fell flat due to her lack of any characterization beyond "female loyal stormtrooper with mirrored armor". The fight gave Finn an okay moment of personal victory against a symbol of the group that brainwashed and abused him, but it felt by-the-numbers; Finn's suicide charge did a far better job of making me feel that he'd truly devoted himself to defeating the First Order, not just escaping it, without once again failing to properly utilize a potentially badass minor villain who already was misused in the previous film. If they bother to bring her back in Ep IX, they really need to do a far better job of it or Phasma will never feel like anything beyond Star Wars trying to monetize Brienne of Tarth's awesomeness without having earned the right to do so.
The ugly:
.........................................yeah, I got nothing for this category
The movie is by no means perfect, but I had a great time overall, with the casino planet being the only significant part that felt dragged-out and truly unnecessary to me. Its apparent purposes were to connect Finn and Rose, which it didn't really succeed at, to introduce a reason for Finn to question the rationale behind the Resistance before he truly decides to devote himself to it anyways (which again, it didn't quite succeed at), and to get Finn and Rose onto the Mega SD, which could've been done a bajillion other ways without half the hoops to jump through. But Del Toro was fun to see, and I really liked that he wasn't a "hidden good guy" character but instead was quite sincerely a mercenary for hire, and I liked Rose and Finn so I didn't mind joining them for a quick if somewhat unnecessary and absurd adventure.
The great:
-The entire scene with Snoke, Rey, Ren, and the Red Guards from start to finish
-Luke projecting himself to the salt planet
-Yoda
-The hyperspace ram - one of the most beautiful shots in all of Star Wars
-Rey and Ren being connected and their conversations
-Poe prank calling Hux was fucking AWESOME
-The acting of all the main characters - everyone gave their A-game here and it showed
-FUCKING SHIELDS ON SHIPS EXIST AND WE SEE THEM!
The good:
-Finn's suicide charge as he finally finds something he can willingly devote himself to (alongside the utter failure of the falling-apart speeders vs top-line military vehicles) - though I'm torn on whether or not I think he should've been allowed to die trying, as that would've been a very powerful moment but would also have left the character feeling somewhat short-changed in my mind; if he'd died there I know I'd have come out having wanted more of him and disappointed (not sad, disappointed) that there wouldn't be, and I think that'd have been the wrong last feeling to leave me with regarding him
-Poe's arc as he learns that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor
-Rose was adorable
-Chewie and the porgies (or whatever they're called) was hilarious and adorable
-Luke's arc as Rey and Yoda remind him that utter failure isn't always the end
-Leia showing she's got some Force tricks up her sleeves too
-Rey coming to define her own place in things rather than still asking for someone else to tell her what it is, and accepting the mantle of a new sort of post-Jedi force user (though this could've been a bit better handled, I still really liked how she was done here, particularly the apparent fact that her parents were nobodies; I hated all theories that she was the child of someone super important, and I really hope they don't backtrack on this one in Ep. IX because not everything has to be about the fucking Skywalkers)
-Hux starting to draw his blaster before Ren wakes up and clearly resisting Ren assuming the Supreme Leader mantle - lots of ground to grow there in Ep. IX
-I really liked that Del Toro's character was NOT a scoundrel-with-a-heart-of-gold; he was just a scoundrel, and had the movie tried to redeem him in the short time we had with him it would've felt forced. Han coming back after everything in ANH worked - Del Toro's character turning good would not have
The meh, could be better:
-The Rose-Finn romance didn't feel earned, but then again, not everyone expresses affection the same way, and Rose definitely geeked out enough on meeting Finn and showed enough social anxiety issues that I can somewhat buy a fangirl thinking she's in love with a personal hero she finally spends some time with
-Snoke could've used a fair bit more characterization before being killed off, but I suspect he was always intended as a red herring of sorts, and that the whole point of the character was to lead us to expect a Vader-turning-on-the-Emperor moment of redemption for Kylo Ren; instead we got a dark side apprentice legitimately killing his master to seize the mantle rather than to change sides - and in truth, it's not like the original trilogy gave us any deep character work for the Emperor either
-The casino planet storyline I actually didn't mind all that much, but it didn't mesh with the rest of the film well, and what it achieved I think could've been achieved through other means. It got Rose and Finn on the Mega SD so they could participate in the climax, it gave them an adventure together so the Rose-Finn pairing didn't feel entirely fake, and it built on the kind of nuanced look at the galactic wars introduced during the prequels and Clone Wars series: that there are people who benefit greatly from this struggle without sharing any of the risks, and that want the wars to never end because they keep lining the pockets of profiteers, and that the wars don't just happen purely because ideologically-opposed beings can't find a middle-ground. Instead, they often happen in no small part because many have a vested interest in keeping the fighting happening. This is good stuff, but I don't think it was handled as well as it could have been by any stretch, and this was the only part of the movie that I felt dragged.
-Much as I liked the hyperspace ram, it should've been Ackbar as the admiral in charge of the suicide run, not some lady I'd never seen before
-BB-8 felt somewhat underutilized to me - I enjoyed every moment with him still, but he didn't quite live up to the charm he had in TFA
-I understand the point of the end scene with the kid on the planet symbolizing a new Rose, a new hope, a new rebellion/resistance to the harshness of the galaxy, but it still felt somewhat tacked on to me
The bad:
-The bomber run against the dreadnought - despite what many will think, yes, a ship under powered flight above a planet CAN just drop bombs that way assuming that down for the bomber points close-to-directly at the planet (once detached from the ship the bombs will still be accelerated "down" by gravity while the ship's own acceleration will keep it on a "straight" path, leaving the bombs to "fall" relative to the ship), but it felt wrong nonetheless and I'd have greatly preferred it to feel more like a battle in space without gravity playing any apparent role
-Leia surviving being blown out into space. Yes, this contradicts one of my goods above, but I think showing Leia still had significant Force powers could have been achieved without squandering this PERFECT way to kill the character - Kylo deciding not to kill her and then her dying anyway because of an attack he's a part of would have been a wonderful thing for him, and the audience, to go through. There's a bit of hindsight at play here, as I suspect she was intended to die in Ep. IX and reality intervened, but damn it that would've been a great send-off
-edit: One more bad: Phasma. There was some utility in terms of Finn's arc to have him face off against her, but it fell flat due to her lack of any characterization beyond "female loyal stormtrooper with mirrored armor". The fight gave Finn an okay moment of personal victory against a symbol of the group that brainwashed and abused him, but it felt by-the-numbers; Finn's suicide charge did a far better job of making me feel that he'd truly devoted himself to defeating the First Order, not just escaping it, without once again failing to properly utilize a potentially badass minor villain who already was misused in the previous film. If they bother to bring her back in Ep IX, they really need to do a far better job of it or Phasma will never feel like anything beyond Star Wars trying to monetize Brienne of Tarth's awesomeness without having earned the right to do so.
The ugly:
.........................................yeah, I got nothing for this category
The movie is by no means perfect, but I had a great time overall, with the casino planet being the only significant part that felt dragged-out and truly unnecessary to me. Its apparent purposes were to connect Finn and Rose, which it didn't really succeed at, to introduce a reason for Finn to question the rationale behind the Resistance before he truly decides to devote himself to it anyways (which again, it didn't quite succeed at), and to get Finn and Rose onto the Mega SD, which could've been done a bajillion other ways without half the hoops to jump through. But Del Toro was fun to see, and I really liked that he wasn't a "hidden good guy" character but instead was quite sincerely a mercenary for hire, and I liked Rose and Finn so I didn't mind joining them for a quick if somewhat unnecessary and absurd adventure.
