Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Illidan Stormrage on January 06, 2018, 03:54:07 PM
-
WARNING SPOILERS
Look... you wanna know why Rey is so strong in the force.... and Kylo is not? For the exact same reason why North is North, why the handsome guy(me) always gets the girl, and why every spaceship in the universe is shaped like a cock. It's destiny, guys."
—Illidan Stormrage 3:46 EST 1/6/2018
No but seriously the force works in mysterious ways as said by many people so maybe its the force? I mean it would be a simple explanation to something. I mean why did Luke blow up the Death Star? The Force. Why did Obi Wan beat Anakin? He had the force and the high ground. How did the Rogue One group succeed? The Force. How did Rey beat Kylo? The Force. How did Kylo kill Snoke? The Force. How is Mace MotherFucking Windu so good? The Force, Bitch. How Did Papaltine hide himself from the Jedi? The Force. How did Darth Vader slaughter a rebel base of 10000? The Force Bitch.
I mean we can go on and on, but what we have to accept is that the force works in strange ways. Its what you considered is driving the plot. If you cant accept that then i don't know what else to say.
-
Look... you wanna know why Rey is so strong in the force.... and Kylo is not? For the exact same reason why North is North, why the handsome guy(me) always gets the girl, and why every spaceship in the universe is shaped like a cock. It's destiny, guys."
—Illidan Stormrage 3:46 EST 1/6/2018
No but seriously the force works in mysterious ways as said by many people so maybe its the force? I mean it would be a simple explanation to something. I mean why did Luke blow up the Death Star? The Force. Why did Obi Wan beat Anakin? He had the force and the high ground. How did the Rogue One group succeed? The Force. How did Rey beat Kylo? The Force. How did Kylo kill Snoke? The Force. How is Mace MotherFucking Windu so good? The Force, Bitch. How Did Papaltine hide himself from the Jedi? The Force. How did Darth Vader slaughter a rebel base of 10000? The Force Bitch.
I mean we can go on and on, but what we have to accept is that the force works in strange ways. Its what you considered is driving the plot. If you cant accept that then i don't know what else to say.
The term you're looking for is Super Mary Sue. She's done the way she is because of focus groups wanting"strong independent woman ' she's not a character so much as a series of check boxes on a poll chart.
-
Just to poke a gigantic hole into your argument:
It takes training, a loooooot of training to Master the Force...
Example Luke: Yes he had the Force, but firing Proton Torpedos is something entirely different than fighting a Lightsaber Duel.
Example Obi Wan - Anakin: Anakin was overcome by rage and out of control, he overestimated himself and jumped into Obi-Wan's Saber,
Plus: Obi Wan WAS Anakins Master, he had training, lots of Training, Anakin was just a Jedi Knight strong with the force but undisciplined.
Rogue One: Plot Reasons, none other than Plot Reasons was the reason they succeded.
Rey beating Kylo: She is a Mary Sue!
Kylo killing Snoke: REASONS.
Mace Windu: He had a fuck ton of training.
Palpatine: He was trained by motherf*** Darth Plagueis! He was TRAINED! He didn't just do that because of the Force he had TRAINING.
Darth Vader Slaughtering Rebels: HE HAD TRAINING! He has a Lightsaber with which he can deflect Blasters, IT's not just the Force.
The Force might work in strange ways but MOST of the time you can explain things with TRAINING!
Luke didn't go up to Darth Vader in Episode IV and beat up his ass, because he wasn't trained.
Anakin lost to Count Dooku in Episode II because Dooku was better disciplined and trained!
Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul on Tatooine in one strike because he meditated and analysed about his opponent and Darth Maul tried the same trick twice - TRAINING/DISCIPLINE!
Rey has neither Training nor Discipline she is a Mary Sue.
That's it.
-
The term you're looking for is Super Mary Sue. She's done the way she is because of focus groups wanting"strong independent woman ' she's not a character so much as a series of check boxes on a poll chart.
This mentality needs to stop. It really is not appropriate and isn't fair. George Lucas also wanted a female lead so no this was suppose to happen anyway. If its a female character who gives a shit? I mean idc about the characters gender at all as long as they write the character well. Just because she is a woman does not mean anything okay?
Just to poke a gigantic hole into your argument:
It takes training, a loooooot of training to Master the Force...
Example Luke: Yes he had the Force, but firing Proton Torpedos is something entirely different than fighting a Lightsaber Duel.
So by you logic that a force user requires training to do the things they do, then Luke should not have been able to blow up the death star. Yes it is different then a lightsaber duel, but that means its a lot harder than that. Its easiler to kill another in a lightsbaer duel then it is to blow up a fucking superweapon.
Rogue One: Plot Reasons, none other than Plot Reasons was the reason they succeded.
umm The Empire with hit by a surpirise attack by a bunch of rebel terrorists one of whom had the force. The rebels also sent a massive fleet and win the battle becuase of the Empire not using any support ships or getting renforicements untill late in the game. What does this have to do with the force? Jyn was trained in terrorism and is a rebel extremist who was taught by a terrorist named Saw Gerra.
Example Obi Wan - Anakin: Anakin was overcome by rage and out of control, he overestimated himself and jumped into Obi-Wan's Saber,
Plus: Obi Wan WAS Anakins Master, he had training, lots of Training, Anakin was just a Jedi Knight strong with the force but undisciplined.
Rey beating Kylo: She is a Mary Sue!
Kylo killing Snoke: REASONS.
How is the fight between Rey and Kylo any different? Kylo was overcome with rage and fought out of control like Anakin while Rey fought with disapline. Also Kylo had been shot by a fucking explosive crossbow, stab by Finn duuring their quick Lightsaber duel, and was using the force in order to keep himself from passing out. He was weak plain and simple. Tell me, would it be realistc for Kylo Ren after being fucking shot with a explosive weapon that could have killed him, stab in his shoulder, and literally bleeding beat a woman who knows a thing or two about fighting with Mele weapons?
Aslo as for Kylo killing Snoke: You do realize why that happened? Kylo is sick of everyone's shit. So he is going to build a new world order based on his ideas. The reason he manage to kill Snoke is so simple that even my friends understand why. Kylo's thoughts were that he was going to kill his greatest enemy. Snoke thought it was Rey, but it was Snoke himself. The reason Snoke didnt realize this is because like the fucking Emperor he was over confident. THe Emperor was so powerful he should have sense Vader's betrayal from a mile away. Also Kylo turns his blade as he turns the blue lightsaber next to Snoke.
Done and Done.
The Force might work in strange ways but MOST of the time you can explain things with TRAINING!
Luke didn't go up to Darth Vader in Episode IV and beat up his ass, because he wasn't trained.
Anakin lost to Count Dooku in Episode II because Dooku was better disciplined and trained!
Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul on Tatooine in one strike because he meditated and analysed about his opponent and Darth Maul tried the same trick twice - TRAINING/DISCIPLINE!
Rey has neither Training nor Discipline she is a Mary Sue.
That's it.
Yeah because Luke was barely trained. But you are assuming that Kylo and Vader are equal in power which is not true. Luke was trained slightly, but he did not finish his training. Same goes with Anakin and Dooku.
Maul losted because he wanted to die fighting Obi Wan training had nothing to do with it. this was confrimed by the show writers.
Rey was trained in using her staff and their are plenty of non forceusers who have used lightsabers
Pre-Vizla fought Maul pretty well and held his own.
i can name more but this is already long enough.
-
You do realize my issue is with Rey not being a good character and that the reason they are afraid of making her have to rely on others or have faults is to appease female viewers. I don't have any issue with a female lead so long as the character gets both good development and implementation. I have significant issues with Rey being insanely amazing at everything without work or explanation. I can't get invested with someone who starts where most characters end, max level.
-
Just edit your first post and make a large text saying
WARNING SPOILERS
-
Thanks Mr.Puerto
But really guys i think the problem is that we are assuming using a lightsaber is a hard thing to fight with. I would disagree. Finn, TR8R, Han, Leia, General Kreel(Scar Squad), and many more non force users that are shown to use lightsabers pretty well.
One example was a comic story where Luke when to Nal Hutta and was captured by a Hutt who collected old Clone Wars stuff including Jedi Relics. Some of the relics were lightsabers. At one point Luke is taken into a fighting pit where he fights a Alien pit master who wields a lightsaber. When Leia, and Han are capture as well, they are given lightsabers since they had their guns taken from them. later we find out the Pit Master was a Alien Imperial named Kreel, who serves Darth Vader. Kreel after this mission is granted control of Scar Squad a elite Imperial squad made up of some of the best Imperials. He was acutally given a green Lightsaber to use. It appears in the Storyline The Last Flight of the Harbinger.
Rey uses a staff, its very fair to say she is good with mele weapons and she has been on Jakku for YEARS. Its not out of the ball park to say that she knows a thing or two about fighting, ships, and electronics.
-
The thing you still fail to understand is that it is not how it works.
For example, I give you a katana. You try to swing it left and right and sooner or later you will cut yourself or you will be disarmed easily since you do not understand how to use it properly.
Now if I give you a wooden sword and you train with it for 3-5 years, it won't matter if your enemy has a katana if he doesn't know how to use it, you will disarm him easily with the wooden sword.
And it doesn't matter if it is Rey or Roy, if a male would show such qualities as Rey does in this movie, I would still call him a Mary Sue or whatever the male term is for it (I always forget the name), and I would still critisize the caracter for being OP.
The difference between Luke and Rey is that Luke had training from both Obi Wan AND Yoda, two of the mostpowerful Jedi masters still alive, and still Luke had been defeated by Vader in Empire, since he wasn't trained enough to do so.
In Return, he stood his ground against him, and managed to beat him, but it was still a compromise, since he used his anger, so not a clean victory.
And then the emperor kicked his butt immediately, and only survived because Vader decided that noone messes with my son.
Now we look at Rey. She kicks ass because independent strong female and needs no training from a male.
Yes, she had 3 lessons from Luke, but dang. 3 Lessons and already beats Kylo. Hell, she beat him with 0 training. Kylo who was the GODDAMN JEDI KILLER WHO DESTROYED LUKE'S ACADEMY...
Admit it. SHE IS A MARY SUE!
No way around it.
-
So by you logic that a force user requires training to do the things they do, then Luke should not have been able to blow up the death star. Yes it is different then a lightsaber duel, but that means its a lot harder than that. Its easiler to kill another in a lightsbaer duel then it is to blow up a fucking superweapon.
With the simple difference:
Luke already knew how to fly, Luke already shot targets as big as the Ventilation Vent
he did get a minimal amount of Training on the Milenium Falcon and if you combine all those facts the difference is huge.
How is the fight between Rey and Kylo any different? Kylo was overcome with rage and fought out of control like Anakin while Rey fought with disapline. Also Kylo had been shot by a fucking explosive crossbow, stab by Finn duuring their quick Lightsaber duel, and was using the force in order to keep himself from passing out. He was weak plain and simple. Tell me, would it be realistc for Kylo Ren after being fucking shot with a explosive weapon that could have killed him, stab in his shoulder, and literally bleeding beat a woman who knows a thing or two about fighting with Mele weapons?
Rey just stabbed
she litteraly just used once move, over and over and over again
against the best pupil of Luke Skywalker....
Rey never handled a Lightsaber before, Rey never heard of the Force before but suddenly can force grab the Lightsaber
For which Luke needed the time Between IV and V to learn and only then with A LOT of concentration
And your Argument "fighting" with Meele Weapons? yeah
i refer to the one-move-she-had: Stabbing
And we saw her use that staff of her once? A staff is not a Light-Saber
If you touch a body part of yourself with a staff maybe it hurts, maybe your bone breaks if you are doing something stupid.
With a Lightsaber: You do one wrong move you can kill yourself.
The only valid point might be that Kylo got shot.
Also:
The other major difference between the fight Anakin - Obi-Wan/ Rey - Kylo is: Obi-Wan was a trained and combat experienced Jedi-MASTER, who knew Anakins Fighting Style!
Yeah because Luke was barely trained. But you are assuming that Kylo and Vader are equal in power which is not true.
Kylo was Lukes best Pupil
even if they are not equal, We saw Kylo stop a frigging Laser-Blast in Mid air!
For a rather long time!
Rey was trained in using her staff
By whom and when?
This is the first i heard of it
Pre-Vizla fought Maul pretty well and held his own.
Pre Viszla? The Head of Death Watch, a Mandalorian, who i believe i have read are stronger than the average human.
A Warrior through and through who trained for quit a while and must have been very skilled to become Leader of Death Watch.
He held his own against Maul.
Yes very good comparison to Rey, who is no trained Warrior, who is not a Mandalorian, who did not grow up i a Warrior Culture...
The new movies are just badly writen, if they had attempted to try and explain
WHY she can use Jedi-Mind-Trick beside never ever heard of it
WHY she can use the force on the same level as Luke after about 3 years of self-training
HOW she suddenly know how to fix the Millenium Falcon she never set a foot in
HOW she can hold her own against Kylo Ren in Episode VIII where he is NOT! wounded
WHY she suddenly has such huge Force Powers and it was never shown before
HOW she could understand BB-8 without a translator and never really interacting with droids
Nothing of this was ever explained or mentioned
Anakin, Luke and basically every other Character had some sort of explanation to why and how
this makes Rey a Mary Sue.
You had enough Opportunity to spend time with the Character, develop her, and explain her abilities:
- Show her repairing a droid or something and then sell it for a good price - some explanation why she can the Falcon
instead of: She can because she can repair it.
- show her fighting someone else or better a few guys with a stick to show that she can actually use it as a Weapon!
Both movies are badly written!
Those Flaws aren't just limited to Rey but go on to ALL other Characters in Force Awakens and Last Jedi.
With Rey we just feel it the most.
@kucsidave
Amen Brother!
-
The thing you still fail to understand is that it is not how it works.
For example, I give you a katana. You try to swing it left and right and sooner or later you will cut yourself or you will be disarmed easily since you do not understand how to use it properly.
Now if I give you a wooden sword and you train with it for 3-5 years, it won't matter if your enemy has a katana if he doesn't know how to use it, you will disarm him easily with the wooden sword.
And it doesn't matter if it is Rey or Roy, if a male would show such qualities as Rey does in this movie, I would still call him a Mary Sue or whatever the male term is for it (I always forget the name), and I would still critisize the caracter for being OP.
Now we look at Rey. She kicks ass because independent strong female and needs no training from a male.
Yes, she had 3 lessons from Luke, but dang. 3 Lessons and already beats Kylo. Hell, she beat him with 0 training. Kylo who was the GODDAMN JEDI KILLER WHO DESTROYED LUKE'S ACADEMY...
Admit it. SHE IS A MARY SUE!
No way around it.
As someone who is a fencer and trains in historical fencing you are wrong. You can apply moves from a Sword to a staff. I know this because basic stances, attacks, parries, and counters are the SAME with the only different being the weapon you use which makes the position look different. Rey has bee living on Jakku for years and she clearly has fought off attackers before and knows exactly how to fight.
You also said Luke had training, but that was not until episode 5. He had no training when he blew up the death star, he just tapped into the force then some how hit a thermal exahuast port only TWO METERS WIDE! While fighting the Empire's best pilots including Darth Vader and Iden Veriso.
Again Kylo had been shot by Chewbaca, stabbed by Finn, and was bleeding. You cannot ignore those factors. Using historical fencing knowledge a fighter can be cut and stab but still fight but over time they become weaker. Applying that to Kylo he was bleeding and got into a eariler fight which he took another hit. Rey was not as injured as Kylo was. Rey had only suffered slight back injuries from being thrown. You can argue that Rey could beat Kylo based on that logic. It does not matter if someone has training, you cannot fight that well if you have been badly injured. In fact Kylo should have bleed out, but my brother argues that Kylo was using the force to keep his guts from falling out.
Rey never handled a Lightsaber before, Rey never heard of the Force before but suddenly can force grab the Lightsaber
For which Luke needed the time Between IV and V to learn and only then with A LOT of concentration
And your Argument "fighting" with Meele Weapons? yeah
i refer to the one-move-she-had: Stabbing
And we saw her use that staff of her once? A staff is not a Light-Saber
If you touch a body part of yourself with a staff maybe it hurts, maybe your bone breaks if you are doing something stupid.
With a Lightsaber: You do one wrong move you can kill yourself.
The only valid point might be that Kylo got shot.
Pre Viszla? The Head of Death Watch, a Mandalorian, who i believe i have read are stronger than the average human.
A Warrior through and through who trained for quit a while and must have been very skilled to become Leader of Death Watch.
He held his own against Maul.
Yes very good comparison to Rey, who is no trained Warrior, who is not a Mandalorian, who did not grow up i a Warrior Culture...
The new movies are just badly writen, if they had attempted to try and explain
WHY she can use Jedi-Mind-Trick beside never ever heard of it
WHY she can use the force on the same level as Luke after about 3 years of self-training
HOW she suddenly know how to fix the Millenium Falcon she never set a foot in
HOW she can hold her own against Kylo Ren in Episode VIII where he is NOT! wounded
WHY she suddenly has such huge Force Powers and it was never shown before
HOW she could understand BB-8 without a translator and never really interacting with droids
You had enough Opportunity to spend time with the Character, develop her, and explain her abilities:
- Show her repairing a droid or something and then sell it for a good price - some explanation why she can the Falcon
instead of: She can because she can repair it.
- show her fighting someone else or better a few guys with a stick to show that she can actually use it as a Weapon!
Dude did you not watch the movie? SHe beat up two guys with her staff on Jakku. Also she worked for Unkar Plutt and apparently worked on alot of his ships, and we are told she had used old Imperial pilot simulators in her down time in the novelization. She has been on Jakku savenging for a lone ass time you can assume she has found old droids and repaired them a bit before. We dont to what Rey did everyday, but you can rule out she had not encounter lunatics who tried to kill her.
Also no Mandolrians are not super humans. THey are just humans that trained to be great warriors and even then they still lost to Jedi. Maul is a fucking Sith Lord who is a monster. He has killed plenty of Jedi and was so powerful he cheated Death. Mandalore in the new canon is a waste land just like Jakku. People in said conditions is becuase they adept and learn to fight. Its not out of the realm of possibity.
1 She messed up the mind-trick once before she did it. Again we dont know how the force works in this new universe, but it does impact people's actions.
2 Luke has fought Vader in the comics without training and beat hm once before Empire. Rey beat Kylo for various reasons i have stated before. Also Ezra was able to dodge Tie FIghter blasts before he met Kanan using the force.
3 She has. She did work on the ship for Unkar Plutt and had been savenging old ships ruins. You could say she learn this on Jakku.
4 They did not fight each other techinally they just tried to use the force to take Lukes lightsaber which split it in half. THey fought together aganist Snoke's red hombres and Kylo was fully healed as could be and he was in element taking on three guards at once while Rey was fighting one.
5 What insane force powers? She lifted rocks, make the ground shake and tried to use the force to reach for her lightsaber. MEANWHILE LUKE FUCKING PROJECTED HIMSELF ACROSS THE GALAXY!
6 Where did you get that she never interacted with driods before? She could have on Jakku since she worked their. Again your saying something with no information backing it. If thats a question yout asking then how did Luke understand R2-D2.
Your other point about Rey never using her staff is wrong since we she her use it on two thugs who tried to take BB8 from her.
-
Stormrage, should we take it that you are completely satisfied with how Rey and her force abilities are portrayed in TFA/TLJ? Do you think that everything about her character in these films is perfect in every way? Depending on your answer I will decide whether to join this conversation or not.
-
@Illidan Stormrage
That you could apply Sword - Staff is good to know i am no fencer so in that regard: Thank you.
Though i am still not sure if you could apply it to a Lightsaber, as i said: One wrong move and you are dead.
The "training" part of Luke reffered to the scene where Luke fights the automated Drone or rather tries to pary the Blasts and get's his first impression to how to connect to the Force.
With the 2meter thing: Again if i recall Episode IV correct he did tell the other Pilots he shot Wamp-Rats in his T-16 which are also only 2m big.
Plus: Luke was nearly blasted away by Darth Vader if Han hadn't Deus-ex-machina'ed it, so i wouldn't really call it "fighting" the Empires best Pilot.
regarding the Mandalorians: As i said i believe to have read/heard somewhere that they were supposed to be stronger. I am/was not completly sure about that.
to 1: She didn't even know Mind-Trick existed! How could she possibly use it? If i had a hidden Superpower i don't know about, how could i use it, if i didn't knew it was there?
to 5: Please don't get me started on the BS-Force Projection god that was just... NO....
to 6: Luke didn't understand R2 in Episode IV, he needed C3P0 for that, and later in the X-Wing i believe what R2 said was displayed on a Screen
and my Assumption is based solely on what i saw in the Movie: She didn't interact with Droids so for me there is no explanation to that Skill of her - thus Mary-Sueing it.
But may i say: I think we are turning in circles here?
I think we could go on and on always finding new arguments/facts/opinions about it.
Maybe we should settle at:
They should/could have done a way better Job to explain Why and how Rey got the Skills she has in the Movies.
I am not satisfied with the (lack of) explanation and thus for me she is and will be a Mary Sue.
For you the Explanation is simple: The Force
And i can accept that, for me it is not satisfying enough and i expect more from my beloved Star Wars, which is why i argue so passionatly about it :)
-
Maybe we should settle at:
They should/could have done a way better Job to explain Why and how Rey got the Skills she has in the Movies.
I am not satisfied with the (lack of) explanation and thus for me she is and will be a Mary Sue.
For you the Explanation is simple: The Force
And i can accept that, for me it is not satisfying enough and i expect more from my beloved Star Wars, which is why i argue so passionatly about it :)
Amen to that, Guderian.
100% agreed
-
Luke already knew how to fly, Luke already shot targets as big as the Ventilation Vent
Evidence? All we have is Luke's word for it, which is really no different to Rey's "I'm a pilot" to Finn before they board the Falcon in TFA. Really across all three trilogies the only desert-planet protagonist who properly proved their ability was Anakin with his podracing.
WHY she can use Jedi-Mind-Trick beside never ever heard of it
WHY she can use the force on the same level as Luke after about 3 years of self-training
HOW she can hold her own against Kylo Ren in Episode VIII where he is NOT! wounded
WHY she suddenly has such huge Force Powers and it was never shown before
Personally I'm happy to chalk this up to the film subtitle - "The Force Awakens" in Rey and for some reason she's naturally in-tune with what it can do.
to 5: Please don't get me started on the BS-Force Projection god that was just... NO....
What? That segment with Luke facing down the might of the First Order and then showing up Kylo Ren was one of the highlights of the movie. I loved how they portrayed Luke's power to project his image and thought it was really well done (it's consistent with Legends Luke too).
Maybe we should settle at:
They should/could have done a way better Job to explain Why and how Rey got the Skills she has in the Movies.
I agree they could have done a better job at putting it front and centre for the audience. A lot of cues are there in the background or covered in off-hand remarks, but obviously not as prominent as they might have been.
-
Evidence? All we have is Luke's word for it, which is really no different to Rey's "I'm a pilot" to Finn before they board the Falcon in TFA. Really across all three trilogies the only desert-planet protagonist who properly proved their ability was Anakin with his podracing.
Personally I'm happy to chalk this up to the film subtitle - "The Force Awakens" in Rey and for some reason she's naturally in-tune with what it can do.
What? That segment with Luke facing down the might of the First Order and then showing up Kylo Ren was one of the highlights of the movie. I loved how they portrayed Luke's power to project his image and thought it was really well done (it's consistent with Legends Luke too).
I agree they could have done a better job at putting it front and centre for the audience. A lot of cues are there in the background or covered in off-hand remarks, but obviously not as prominent as they might have been.
To correct you on a few points here Slornie, we don't just have Luke's word he's a pilot, we also have Biggs Darklighter referencing their piloting of Beggars Canyon and that they both flew to practice for the academy. Finally we have Luke's familiarity with the T16 transferring over to the X Wing since both have an almost identical control scheme.
Your second point also doesn't hold up very well as again the "Force" wasn't gone or anything, Rey just begins...using it en masse without fail immediately.
Third, with Luke there's quite a few issues with the projection scene, but I've covered them in another post and retreading that ground is becoming tiresome. Short version, might as well have been there, dies anyway, could have done this waaaay before things got this bad.
On this last topic I agree, I just feel they missed some great opportunities to develop Rey as both a powerful and interesting character with depth.
-
To correct you on a few points here Slornie, we don't just have Luke's word he's a pilot, we also have Biggs Darklighter referencing their piloting of Beggars Canyon and that they both flew to practice for the academy. Finally we have Luke's familiarity with the T16 transferring over to the X Wing since both have an almost identical control scheme.
Biggs saying this only happens in the special editions - the original theatrical release of Star Wars didn't include it (and including this scene is one of few good moves made by the SEs). Also, the movies give zero hints that a T16 and an X-wing have similar controls - we only know that they are both Incom products from sources beyond the movies.
edit:
Rey's abilities come in, essentially, four forms. 1) She's a good mechanic; 2) she's a good pilot; 3) she's a good melee combatant; 4) she's a Force prodigy. 1-3 are mostly covered by her background, though I definitely think this could've been made a bit more explicit, and all three are abilities that we've seen plenty of precedent from the EU for latent Force potential enhancing - Anakin Solo was great with machines from childhood, and piloting and combat abilities seem almost ubiquitous among those with Force potential. So it's really just 4 that needs explanation, and I think the important thing to remember is the Yoda-Luke conversation after Yoda lifts the X-Wing out of the swamp: "I don't believe it." "That is why you fail."
Unlike Luke, Rey believes it, right from the start. She lacks his skepticism - we never see her insist that something won't work or can't be done or demand an explanation for why the way Luke does on multiple occasions (the blast shield on the helmet, lifting the X-Wing being entirely different from lifting rocks, etc.). Luke had to spend time unlearning what he had learned, in Yoda's words, but Rey doesn't seem to have that handicap holding her back; she just accepts at face value what she's told about the Force, and so because she believes she can do these things, she can do them.
-
okay, I'm out of this conversation. I let fanboys be fanboys, fans be fans, and I keep the discontent and feelings of Rey being a mary sue to myself and to threads that are not just to forgive every, in my oppinion, bull's residue Rey has.
-
okay, I'm out of this conversation. I let fanboys be fanboys, fans be fans, and I keep the discontent and feelings of Rey being a mary sue to myself and to threads that are not just to forgive every, in my oppinion, bull's residue Rey has.
I am not a die hard Disney Canon fanboy. I just want to not have to constantly see criticism that is not really warranted. We need to give this new canon a chance. We are talking 30 years of expanded universe lore vs about half a decade of Canon lore in the new canon. Good Star Wars movies, books, comics, and TV shows will have to come around. Who knows maybe this new canon will get a Thrawn movie or maybe a Revan movie. We have to give it time guys.
-
I am not a die hard Disney Canon fanboy.
Agreed. The implication that anyone is just accepting Rey because of some simplistic notion of "I want more Star Wars and don't care about the packaging" is impolite, unfair, and self-congratulatory, as it implies that others are simply blind to what you so clearly see. I may not agree with them, but fans of AotC exist, and I'm not about to tell them that their opinion is less valid than mine simply because they're fanboys; we just disagree about what makes for a good Star Wars movie (or scene or theme or character), and that's okay, because there is no one piece of art that everyone will agree is a masterpiece.
Rey's challenges, in my mind, are more internal than external - she's trying to figure out how to define herself and her place in the events that she's unexpectedly found herself swept up in, rather than having her abilities or allegiances tested by trials others throw at her. Her growth isn't about overcoming some obstacle in her path, it's about her determining for herself what that path is, and how she wants to identify herself and her role in the events to come (Finn is on a similar arc). This may not be any specific person's cup of tea when it comes to character development, but I'm enjoying it quite a bit thus far and look forward to more. If you don't like it, fair enough, but don't shit on me for enjoying what you don't.
-
We need to give this new canon a chance. We are talking 30 years of expanded universe lore vs about half a decade of Canon lore in the new canon. Good Star Wars movies, books, comics, and TV shows will have to come around.
I've compared on another forum the good content we had the two years besides TPM to what we had besides TFA... The comparison put to shame the Story Group Canon. You can take any period between 1991 (the start of a monitored coherent continuity which was nothing less than the curent Story Group) and 2014, that's better than any time period since the reboot (not to mention the rehashing, like Thrawn).
-
I've compared on another forum the good content we had the two years besides TPM to what we had besides TFA... The comparison put to shame the Story Group Canon. You can take any period between 1991 (the start of a monitored coherent continuity which was nothing less than the curent Story Group) and 2014, that's better than any time period since the reboot (not to mention the rehashing, like Thrawn).
The story group releases less books comics and video games because it is trying to keep a straightfoward canonity
-
The story group releases less books comics and video games because it is trying to keep a straightfoward canonity
And to say the least it's a big failure. Nothing changed with the "new" Story Group. Also I was not talking about quantity but about quality something the new EU is lacking. Here's the list of EU content besides the first movie of a trilogy :
Legends - TMP (19 May 1999) :
Novels :
The Mandalorian Armor
Galaxy of Fear: Clones
X-Wing: Iron Fist
Young Jedi Knights: Trouble on Cloud City
Vision of the Future
Galaxy of Fear: The Hunger
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Slave Ship
Young Jedi Knights: Crisis at Crystal Reef
X-Wing: Solo Command
X-Wing: Isard's Revenge
Novelizations
Jedi Apprentice: The Rising Force
Jedi Apprentice: The Dark Rival
Hard Merchandise
Jedi Apprentice: The Hidden Past
X-Wing: Starfighters of Adumar
Jedi Apprentice: The Mark of the Crown
The New Jedi Order: Vector Prime
Jedi Apprentice: The Defenders of the Dead
Tales from the New Republic
Jedi Apprentice: The Uncertain Path
The New Jedi Order: Dark Tide I: Onslaught
Jedi Apprentice: The Captive Temple
Rogue Planet
Comics (one-shot/mini series) :
Dark Forces: Rebel Agent
Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
The Jabba Tape
Jedi Academy: Leviathan
Mara Jade: By the Emperor's Hand
Crimson Empire II: Council of Blood
Vader's Quest
The Bounty Hunters
Novelizations
Union
Chewbacca
Comics (ongoing) :
Republic
Tales
X-wing: Rogue Squadron
Videogames :
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron
Star Wars: X-Wing Alliance
Star Wars: Episode I: The Phantom Menace
Star Wars: Episode I Racer
Star Wars Episode I: The Gungan Frontier
Star Wars: Yoda's Challenge Activity Center
Star Wars: Pit Droids
Star Wars: Anakin's Speedway
Star Wars: Episode I Jedi Power Battles
Star Wars: Force Commander
Story Group Canon - TFA (19 December 2015) :
Novels :
Heir to the Jedi
Servants of the Empire: Rebel in the Ranks
Lords of the Sith
Dark Disciple
Servants of the Empire: Imperial Justice
Aftermath
Lost Stars
The Weapon of a Jedi: A Luke Skywalker Adventure
Smuggler's Run: A Han Solo & Chewbacca Adventure
Moving Target: A Princess Leia Adventure
A New Hope: The Princess, The Scoundrel, and the Farm Boy
The Empire Strikes Back: So You Want to be a Jedi?
Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side!
Servants of the Empire: The Secret Academy
Battlefront: Twilight Company
Novelizations
Adventures in Wild Space: The Escape
Adventures in Wild Space: The Snare
Adventures in Wild Space: The Nest
Bloodline
Adventures in Wild Space: The Steal
Adventures in Wild Space: The Dark
Aftermath: Life Debt
Ahsoka
Catalyst
Comics (one-shot/mini series) :
Princess Leia
Lando
Shattered Empire
Chewbacca
Obi-Wan & Anakin
Novelizations
Han Solo
Comics (ongoing) :
Star Wars
Kanan
Darth Vader
Poe Dameron
Videogames :
Star Wars Journeys: Beginnings
Club Penguin Star Wars Rebels Takeover
Star Wars Rebels: Recon Missions
Star Wars: Uprising
Star Wars: Galaxy of Heroes
Star Wars Battlefront
Star Wars: Yoda's Jedi Training
LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens
Star Wars: Trials on Tatooine
TV :
Rebels Season 2
Rebels Season 3
-
And to say the least it's a big failure. Nothing changed with the "new" Story Group. Also I was not talking about quantity but about quality something the new EU is lacking. Here's the list of EU content besides the first movie of a trilogy :
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comparison. Phantom Menace wasn't aligned with a newly blank slate expanded universe - most of the related media which followed that film's release was heavily influenced by or related to the previous nine years of world-building.
From a quick look at your list the only novels that don't directly rely on something that came out before TPM are the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy and Tales from the New Republic, with the Jedi Apprentice series and Rogue Planet as tie-ins with the new movie rather like the "Journey to.." stuff Disney has done for both Force Awakens and Last Jedi. There's a lot of young reader/young adult content in both lists (which I never read in the old EU anyway), and the games are much of a muchness for both (lots of movie tie-ins for TPM, lots of mobile/casual games for TFA).
-
I'm not sure that's an entirely fair comparison. Phantom Menace wasn't aligned with a newly blank slate expanded universe - most of the related media which followed that film's release was heavily influenced by or related to the previous nine years of world-building.
From a quick look at your list the only novels that don't directly rely on something that came out before TPM are the Bounty Hunter Wars trilogy and Tales from the New Republic, with the Jedi Apprentice series and Rogue Planet as tie-ins with the new movie rather like the "Journey to.." stuff Disney has done for both Force Awakens and Last Jedi. There's a lot of young reader/young adult content in both lists (which I never read in the old EU anyway), and the games are much of a muchness for both (lots of movie tie-ins for TPM, lots of mobile/casual games for TFA).
That's the problem ! They only do complements to the movies, nothing original, nothing interesting,... It's not fair to compare good to bad but yet...
It's their choice to make it blank for creative freedom, it's their choice to not use their so-called creative freedom and always rehashing and produce unimpressive content.
-
I feel the arguments have gone a wee bit off topic on both sides.
-
I feel the arguments have gone a wee bit off topic on both sides.
take out the "wee bit" and replace it with: "far" and i think we are coming closer ^^
Yes the Universe built around the characters does play a role in explaining their powers, but the core of the discussion (for me) was/is:
What is explained in the Movies and what not.
And before i start ranting again i will stop here ^^
-
The story group releases less books comics and video games because it is trying to keep a straightfoward canonity
And yet, they managed to screw up their own timeline already
take out the "wee bit" and replace it with: "far" and i think we are coming closer ^^
Yes the Universe built around the characters does play a role in explaining their powers, but the core of the discussion (for me) was/is:
What is explained in the Movies and what not.
And before i start ranting again i will stop here ^^
If you ask me, rant at your hearts content, I want to hear your oppinion.
-
And yet, they managed to screw up their own timeline already
If you ask me, rant at your hearts content, I want to hear your oppinion.
I agree lol and if I listed all my issues with Rey as a 'Character' and the films we'd be here until my retirement
-
Personally Star Wars can never get better. And I'm not talking about it already reached its peak at legends or whatever. Star Wars as always been meh (expect for Episode 5)
-
Personally Star Wars can never get better. And I'm not talking about it already reached its peak at legends or whatever. Star Wars as always been meh (expect for Episode 5)
Ya...at the end of the day, Star Wars will always have the problem of writing itself into a corner. It happened with Legends and it's happening with the Disney canon too.
-
And yet, they managed to screw up their own timeline already
If you ask me, rant at your hearts content, I want to hear your oppinion.
Oh yeah they have and some of it is really bad.
Two Examples:
1. When visiting Tatoonie before episode 3 Vader does not sense Obi Wan. This doesnt make sense since he sensed Obi Wan's presense aboard the death star.
2. in TLJ Poe and Rey meet, but they already did in the novelization of TFA and the dialogue is the same bewteeen both connversations.
One other example: i dont want to rant about are Iden Veriso, becuase its retarded and like beating a dead horse.
-
There's even two origin stories that tells how Leia know and visited Crait... If interested, I've heard there's a guy on Twitter who list them.
-
While I do think she could have been better written, Im not convinced at all that she is a political statement.
-
While I do think she could have been better written, Im not convinced at all that she is a political statement.
No of course not, she's also a marketing tool to sell merchandise to females.
-
No of course not, she's also a marketing tool to sell merchandise to females.
I mean, star wars characters have always been marketing tool for action figures.
-
No of course not, she's also a marketing tool to sell merchandise to females.
Except when Force Awakens came out there was a distinct lack of Rey merchandise available, which was quite embarrassing for Disney.
-
Except when Force Awakens came out there was a distinct lack of Rey merchandise available, which was quite embarrassing for Disney.
Because at that time shiny stormtrooper and the kylo dolls were the most relatable to cash in on SW nostalgia slorn. Further since Rey is so popular among female viewers same as Daenerys is for GoT watchers as some kind of pseudo role model/proxy you'd be blind not to see the marketing to exploit that.
-
Because at that time shiny stormtrooper and the kylo dolls were the most relatable to cash in on SW nostalgia slorn. Further since Rey is so popular among female viewers same as Daenerys is for GoT watchers as some kind of pseudo role model/proxy you'd be blind not to see the marketing to exploit that.
Hey Lay off Daenerys. They aren't really comparable because Daenerys goes through hell and back. Also i say more people like Jon Snow because he is what people should be. People mostly like Daenerys because she is hot, ruthless, and powerful,
-
Hey Lay off Daenerys. They aren't really comparable because Daenerys goes through hell and back. Also i say more people like Jon Snow because he is what people should be. People mostly like Daenerys because she is hot, ruthless, and powerful,
Stand down Dragon, That throne belongs to Stannis. A just and qualified King. It is also his by Right.
I also didn't lay into Dany, I was drawing a parallel between people liking someone solely based on looks and general is instead of qualification.
-
Stand down Dragon, That throne belongs to Stannis. A just and qualified King. It is also his by Right.
I also didn't lay into Dany, I was drawing a parallel between people liking someone solely based on looks and general is instead of qualification.
While i do agree Stannis is the mannis and should have been king (he probably get shit done) i still like Dany.
And while Dany is very pretty i like more because we see her go from this weak little girl to this ruthless and fiery Targaryen with a little mercy in her heart. Whether or not she is qualified is another story.(though judging by how she ruled marreen, she be feared by the commenors, but attract plenty of suitors)
Rey on the other hand is shown to have not gone through a living hell. All she lived on was a hot planet where she worked for food. Unlike Dany she wasn't beaten, raped, almost murder, and betrayed by some of her closest allies.
-
While i do agree Stannis is the mannis and should have been king (he probably get shit done) i still like Dany.
And while Dany is very pretty i like more because we see her go from this weak little girl to this ruthless and fiery Targaryen with a little mercy in her heart. Whether or not she is qualified is another story.(though judging by how she ruled marreen, she be feared by the commenors, but attract plenty of suitors)
Rey on the other hand is shown to have not gone through a living hell. All she lived on was a hot planet where she worked for food. Unlike Dany she wasn't beaten, raped, almost murder, and betrayed by some of her closest allies.
I agree on this point. Dany has had actual character building and is shown to be flawed yet improving. She did have to work to get where she is and we get to SEE that development, further she has had lots of help and tutoring by experienced people around her, men and women. Rey by contrast starts at max level, has no flaws to overcome and is just better at everything than everyone else. The rest of the cast might as well not even be there. She's better with the Force than Luke-in spite of never being trained, she flies better and can fix the Falcon faster than Han and Chewie-by herself-she is more of a rallying point than Leia, she saves herself when captured, she constantly humiliates her supposed rival on the dark side and saves his life in spite of having roughly 10 hours training in the Force(which was really just Luke showing her one thing to convince her to NOT train) she can speak wookie, swim, fly and use the advanced techniques of the Force with zero reason or explanation as to WHY she can just DO all these things and have no weaknesses. She never pays for her decisions at all, unlike Dany, so there is zero investment in her 'character' Rey can't fall or fuck up, so there's never a time I feel she's in any actual danger or learning something. There is no PROGRESSION. What is her motivation for fighting the First Order? What is her investment in Kylo Ren-a guy she has spent less than a day around-and in that time period he killed her father figure and murdered billions, then just kind of asks her to join him. There's no investment, no development and no growth. It's actually very sad that they had a chance to bring all the OT guys together for some scenes of interaction but didn't, they wanted them back in but didn't want them to be who they were because plot required it, not because it made sense to the character progression. These flaws will only become MORE apparent with time, the spectacle will fade, the special effects will age and the hype will die down-when that happens what are we left with? The characters and story, both of which in the new franchise are contradictory and under developed.
(and while I don't think Stannis will ever actually sit the Throne-that's not how his character arc is set up to play out in the books-he is certainly the best for the job as well as also being the Rightful King by all the laws of Gods and Men in Westeros)
-
I honestly wish Ezra and Thrawn show up and kill them all.
You can have a pilot played by Kit Harington says "True Empire is back bitches" before killing off maybe Rose and Finn.
Poe can live and maybe you can have Kylo take all his troops and moved to six small planets.
done.
-
I honestly wish Ezra and Thrawn show up and kill them all.
You can have a pilot played by Kit Harington says "True Empire is back bitches" before killing off maybe Rose and Finn.
Poe can live and maybe you can have Kylo take all his troops and moved to six small planets.
done.
We have quite enough poorly written segways due to plot with no thought or reason behind them already. Don't need more
-
Stand down Dragon, That throne belongs to Stannis. A just and qualified King. It is also his by Right.
Depends on how you're defining Right there. Stannis was next in line after Robert, true, but Robert was a usurper who seized the Iron Throne from the Targaryen line that created it in the first place - prior to Aegon's conquest there was no single ruler of Westeros, simply seven independent kingdoms.
Personally, I think Stannis would've been a terrible king. Not because he was a bad person or incompetent, but because he was terrible with people - a king needs to maintain the loyalty of the lords and play them against each other, and Stannis never showed a talent for playing politics of that nature. He's respected, but neither loved nor feared, and come winter his inability to inspire or motivate the lords would've torn the kingdoms apart as they tried to survive the onslaught.
Of course, Dany's not all that great a queen either, nor Jon Snow a great king - but these two are younger and more malleable, more willing to acknowledge and learn from their mistakes, so the potential to grow into the roles is there. Stannis was too old and too stubborn to change his ways.
-
Depends on how you're defining Right there. Stannis was next in line after Robert, true, but Robert was a usurper who seized the Iron Throne from the Targaryen line that created it in the first place - prior to Aegon's conquest there was no single ruler of Westeros, simply seven independent kingdoms.
I remember when i had a dream where i walked in on the parlay and said "Right of Conquest, Bitch" before unloading a glock into Cerci. Then i sat on the Iron Throne for a few minutes before getting board and giving the throne to Daenerys.
-
I remember when i had a dream where i walked in on the parlay and said "Right of Conquest, Bitch" before unloading a glock into Cerci. Then i sat on the Iron Throne for a few minutes before getting board and giving the throne to Daenerys.
Lets get back on topic -_^ :)
-
Depends on how you're defining Right there. Stannis was next in line after Robert, true, but Robert was a usurper who seized the Iron Throne from the Targaryen line that created it in the first place - prior to Aegon's conquest there was no single ruler of Westeros, simply seven independent kingdoms.
Personally, I think Stannis would've been a terrible king. Not because he was a bad person or incompetent, but because he was terrible with people - a king needs to maintain the loyalty of the lords and play them against each other, and Stannis never showed a talent for playing politics of that nature. He's respected, but neither loved nor feared, and come winter his inability to inspire or motivate the lords would've torn the kingdoms apart as they tried to survive the onslaught.
Of course, Dany's not all that great a queen either, nor Jon Snow a great king - but these two are younger and more malleable, more willing to acknowledge and learn from their mistakes, so the potential to grow into the roles is there. Stannis was too old and too stubborn to change his ways.
Simple, the Targaryan dynasty was created by Right of Conques. When Aegon conquered Westeros it established that as a Right recognized by the kingdoms. When Robert Baratheon killed Prince Rhaegar(effectively defeating the Targaryan dynasty at the Battle of the Trident and ensuring the collapse of the Mad King) and then took the Iron Throne the Targaryan dynasty was replaced by Right of Conquest with the Baratheon Dynasty-again widely accepted and then proven by the kingdoms as the new legitimate dynasty. Since Robert had no trueborn heirs the Throne by right of both birth, blood and succession passes by law to Stannis since the Baratheon Dynasty was not overthrown by conquest and the lannister bastards rule with Baratheon last names because it is still the acknowledged dynasty.
Stannis would I think be a good king-though an unpopular one- his reforms are based off merit earned, he would scour the court clean and appoint men of talent instead of sycophants. It is precisely this reason the schemes like Baelish and varys oppose him because he is not corruptible or acceptable to bribery and flattery. He's probably the best military commander in Westeros on land or sea and is just. He inspires no love but fierce loyalty in those who follow him, "the lords might have their doubts but the common man believed in their King-he was Robert's brother, victor of the famous battle off fair isle.-ADoD
Stannis would not be popular with the Lords but with support from the Iron Bank, a proven mind for both governing and warfare none would be able to mount effective challenge to his position were he to sit the Throne.
Finally your claim Stannis is too old to change is not based on what we've seen. He has the kingdom's longevity in mind sees the need to bend when it's called for and showed great versitility and the ability to adapt from the time Davos returned after Blackwater to his present time in the North-listening to Jon, distancing himself from the red woman, winning the northern clans and the iron bank.