Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Mitthrawnuruodo on November 14, 2017, 06:42:02 PM
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So to summarise, what people wanted was a story akin to the original Battlefront 2 which showed us the perspective of a clone trooper who fought all the way through the Clone Wars, the rise of the Empire, and the Galactic Civil War up to the Battle of Hoth. We got to see how the Republic became the Empire and what that meant for the soldiers. What people wanted in Disney/EA's Battlefront II was the same treatment for the post-Endor Empire, to show us the story of a soldier sticking with the Empire through 30 years worth of history to become the First Order. In terms of the material of canon we know so far, even though there's the whole thing about the Empire disappearing and not causing much trouble for that time, I say there was still potential to tell that kind of story, especially with Inferno Squad, a Special Forces team.
However, there were others who had a prediction; that the player character would defect. They were right. And we didn't get to see how the Empire became the First Order at all. The story goes from Endor, does Operation Cinder as depicted in the Shattered Empire comics, does the Battle of Jakku and then skips to just before The Force Awakens to an abrupt cliffhanger ending. So there's no new key plot points to the timeline in Battlefront 2, it just covers what's already been depicted in other material with a personal story tacked on. So if you were expecting the rise of the First Order, you haven't got it. Basically what you've got is Shattered Empire the game.
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I was pretty pissed off actually. I never felt so misled and overhyped about a story that had never been done before. I was so happy to finally get A Imperial perspective, more specifically one of a Imperial who is loyal without question. Except that isn't what we got. What we got is another defection story, which I did not want. What made this worse is that the trailers have shown things like Iden giving a speech to Imperials on Vardos about how "Hope cannot save them.", Star killer base with Iden saying over "I have waited 30 years for this", That shot of Del Meeko aiming his blaster at Luke Skywalker, and one showing a imperial fleet taking off into hyperspace.
I also like to mention that the Behind the secenes trailer showed some more interesting things such as: a early animation of Iden, Gideon, Del, and some stormtroopers bordering a shuttle whiling firing back at rebels attacking them, another showed Hask's voice actor is mocap angary pointing and shouting with Iden's voice actor who was also in Mocap.
Not only that this breaks the canon lore established in the novel and in other medias. In the book it is stated that Garrick Versio is more loyal to Vardos then the Empire, and that he cares about his daughter(he doesn't show it, but he violated Imperial protocol for her). Another thing is that Iden shows no evidence of betraying the Empire even in the books. In fact she is so scared of being undercover as a traitor, because she fears in disappointing her mother. Also Seyn died for Inferno Squadron and the Empire which makes Iden and Del's betrayal less believe able by the minute. Another problem is that Garrick Veriso's fleet shouldn't be refueling at Bespin since it is ruled by a former-Imperial Governor turned Warlord Adheard, who made his own independent imperial faction and formed the Iron Blockaded. That is technically a different faction controlling that region. Also why do they even join the rebellion? If they left the Empire shouldn't they just have deserted or Joined Rae Slaone in order to stop Operation Cinder? Also why doesn't the rebellion just execute Iden and Del for all the damage they had done to the rebellion? Also why is Vardos now Buddy-Buddy with the First Order? and what is project resurrection? Is Iden going to be cloned? It just doesn't make any sense, and I wish we just had that Imperial POV campaign.
What makes Iden's betrayl less believable is Gideon Hask, and Iden Veriso being such good friends yet Gideon not questioning the pain Iden feels at seeinf her world destroyed. After all in the book Gideon had a meltdown thinking Iden had perish during the battle of Yavin. It just doesn't work.
However I now have a new question: Could Rey's parents possibly be Iden Versio and Del Meeko? Just saying it is possible.
In fact I also blame this on the whole concept of Operation: Cinder which is really stupid concept, and doesn't work. Why the fuck are any of these Imperials listening to these messages? The fact that we know the Empire was planning counter attacks this doesn't make any fucking sense. People like Levelcapgaming, Star wars Explained, and Generation Tech have all complained about this element of the story. Those stupid aftermath, and shattered Empire nonsense ruined a lot of potential and therefore screw over this campaign.
I will say however to the game's credit, I like the missions where you with The Empire. The Battle of Fondor was fun and great so was the Mission on Endor. I also do like Iden Versio and Del Meeko's relationship. I just loved the character performances, but not the story.
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I think I can understand what the story group's rationale behind Operation Cinder is. I believe the 30 years of nothing really interesting happening is a deliberate method of sectioning-off eras. I imagine they wanted to avoid the scenario of the old Expanded Universe where post-Endor was up for grabs by multiple authors all contradicting each other. So they wanted to punch a void in the timeline where nothing happens, and that means they need the Empire out of the picture very quickly. So they have the Empire commit suicide then disappear in one year, and then nothing really interesting happens until the Resistance and First Order get at each other so you've got neatly sectioned definable eras. Hence why Battlefront II jumps from Jakku to the First Order, because I imagine the story writers were specifically told not to put anything in between.
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However I now have a new question: Could Rey's parents possibly be Iden Versio and Del Meeko? Just saying it is possible.
There's still people interesting by this subject ?
I imagine they wanted to avoid the scenario of the old Expanded Universe where post-Endor was up for grabs by multiple authors all contradicting each other.
The few contradictions were worth considering the quality of the stories.
Anyway I felt like you guys, Disney are the specialists as making hype (via teaser and trailer) over something that's end being awful (TFA, every seasons of Rebels,...) and sadly that's apply to BF II too. I fell for it like everyone, also thanks to the promising novel. It's depressing how much of bad content we had lately.
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SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO glad I didn't preorder. And looks like I'll have no reason to purchase now that I know the story sucks and I have no desire to play pay-to-win.
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I watched the battlefront 2 story and while its cliche, its still alot better than the classic BF 2 story.
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The story is not bad but disapointing. It portrays some event of the Story Group Canon but there's few really new content (except the characters which are quite good).
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I watched the battlefront 2 story and while its cliche, its still alot better than the classic BF 2 story.
Disagree becasue it isnt fair to compare them. Battlefront 2(2005) was about the battles the 501st battleion as a whole took part in the clone wars up to battle of hoth, while Battlefront 2(EA) is about a elite squad of stormtroopers(was about a elite squad of stormtroopers) but it was over hyped as this epic Imperial POV, but it disapoints. Also Graphics, gameplay, and story have come a long way since then, and keep in mine EA hired professional story tellers(That somehow fucked up a simple idea)
Also i like to blame the campagin's failure on the lucasfilm story group. They either interfere with the story, or they didnt help direct the story well enough. It is clear that something changed. We were told we would feel sympathetic toward the Empire and I will be honest, it made me hate the Empire more. I dont understand what they were thinking. In fact this is because of the timeline this has happened. Do to the fact after Jakku the gap is 30 years leaves almost nothing to see. I loved what Star Wars Explained said when talking abou the campagin. He called out EA by saying "You cant tell me this is going to fill in the time gap between the battle of Endor and the force awakens from the POV of a Imperial when Iden defects early on and all we see is Jakku then a time jump to a year or two before the focre awakens." In short EA lied to us(not the first time) and a story which could have been amazing was scrapped in favor of another defector story. We already have Sabine Wren, Bodie Rook, Galen Erso, and Agent Kallus, we have had enough of this shit. Give me a character who is loyal to Empire and joins the First Order.
I will admit though the campagin has its moments of awsomeness.
1. The mission on Takedona is acutally really cool.
2. All missions where Iden works for the Empire.
3. The Lando Mission was fun
4. Pillo was cool
But in reality what killed the campagin for Me was Operation: Cinder. This plan has been complained about by many youtbers and ganers. Most called it just plain stupid and question how it works. It is like the U.S.A losing a battle in Afganistan and then retaliating by nuking Texas. The plan just is retarded om soo many levels.
Also why does Iden join the rebellion/New Republic? They do really fucked up and horrible things such as
1. Hiring Bounty Hunters, terrorists, and murders as death squads to track down and kill Imperial Citizens, Imperial leaders like Gleb, and others who cross the rebellion/New Repbulic? How is that different then Imperials hunting for solving Aelderians?
2. Denying planets the right to be under Imperial control and forcing the planets that do to be disarmed so they cant fight any pirates or criminal factions that threaten them.
3. Using criminal factions such as the hutt cartel, the black sun, and the Zahn consiurtum(now cannon thanks to uprising) along with Criminals and terrorists in order to take over the Anoat Sector.
4. Excuting Imperials publicly
5. Killing people on coursant who wish to make their own Indepedent planet-state(is that the right term?)
6. Allowing former Partisans and extremists into the rebellion
Can anyone justify Iden not just deserting or trying to convince the Empire to stop Operation: Cinder?
I also dont understand why Iden would join the rebellion/New Republic.
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I watched the battlefront 2 story and while its cliche, its still alot better than the classic BF 2 story.
That's because the original BF2 story wasn't about drama, it was about context. It was the voice of one soldier amongst many, which is the point of Battlefront, you play as expendable grunts that are a dime a dozen. You die, you respawn as another grunt, but your grunt's life isn't important, it's the objective that's important. The plot of old BF2 reflected that, it was about the macrocosm; you're fighting to build the Empire, and it's a fight we hadn't seen in detail before.
What people wanted in the new BF2 story was to fight to build the First Order. They got shafted with a predictable defection story set during events we mostly already know about.
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That's because the original BF2 story wasn't about drama, it was about context. It was the voice of one soldier amongst many, which is the point of Battlefront, you play as expendable grunts that are a dime a dozen. You die, you respawn as another grunt, but your grunt's life isn't important, it's the objective that's important. The plot of old BF2 reflected that, it was about the macrocosm; you're fighting to build the Empire, and it's a fight we hadn't seen in detail before.
What people wanted in the new BF2 story was to fight to build the First Order. They got shafted with a predictable defection story set during events we mostly already know about.
See you make it out to be this big thing, but it really isnt though. Its just a boring story, on top of that the gameplay is fucking awful. If you want a good story about grunts, Gundam 08th MS team is the way to go.
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See you make it out to be this big thing, but it really isnt though. Its just a boring story, on top of that the gameplay is fucking awful. If you want a good story about grunts, Gundam 08th MS team is the way to go.
Thats a unfair statement. Your comapring a game from 2005 to a game in 2017, of course the gameplay will be awful. The reason why BF2's campagin is ulitmaelty more disapointing since we were give expectations and hyped up, but that tunred out to be all for nothing. I wish they could just retcon some of this shit, like make it all a dream that Iden had after joining the First Order. THat be fucking stupid, but i take that over anything else.(Or maybe brainwashing that be a sick plot twist)
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Thats a unfair statement. Your comapring a game from 2005 to a game in 2017, of course the gameplay will be awful. The reason why BF2's campagin is ulitmaelty more disapointing since we were give expectations and hyped up, but that tunred out to be all for nothing. I wish they could just retcon some of this shit, like make it all a dream that Iden had after joining the First Order. THat be fucking stupid, but i take that over anything else.(Or maybe brainwashing that be a sick plot twist)
Dont worry BF2 was bad with games during that time too imo
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Dont worry BF2 was bad with games during that time too imo
Can someone also explain why Vardos was a target of Operatin: Cinder yet Kuat, Courscant, and core world planets were not?
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Dont worry BF2 was bad with games during that time too imo
Definitely can't agree with that; BF2 was the shit when it came out. My entire dorm had BF2 gaming sessions and contests - the only other game that received such treatment by us was the Smash Bros of the time. Halo 2, or other split-screen multiplayer? Nowhere near as fun as playing a galactic campaign against each other. BF2's gameplay had a lot going for it, including things that were fairly new and unique at the time like the galactic conquest mode, and the space combat maps with their heavy starfighter emphasis.
It's disappointing that the new BF2's campaign seems to be somewhat lackluster based upon reviews, as that was the game's main selling point for me.
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See you make it out to be this big thing, but it really isnt though. Its just a boring story, on top of that the gameplay is fucking awful. If you want a good story about grunts, Gundam 08th MS team is the way to go.
The cutscene of BF2 may have presented a boring story, but when combined with the fact half the plot is the literal moment by moment action of you actually playing the game, the story is in the gameplay due to your actions shaping how the battle goes, the cutscenes became very widely loved due to the fact it provides what most action movies and games do not in their plots, context and reasoning for violence. The action scenes are the battles, dictated by your gameplay of them, while the cutscenes are the breathers after each battle, reflecting on why you did that.
Video game stories are not simply the plot, it's also what grows out of the gameplay. A horrible succession of died lives only to grab a tank and clear a way to the final objective. Flanking around the map to light up the enemy's apprpaching heavy walker. These moments.
From this thread it sounds like (even if we give the writers the benefit of the doubt and assume the New Rebellion is lile the old one with the exception of Wraith Squadron, shiny heroes who fought for peace, justice, and protection, offering pardons to Imps and such) that the story of BF2 is either poorly written, or just not what it could've been. I didn't bother with Micro Transaction Front 2, nor do I like the new canon enough to watch the cutscenes on youtbe.
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It's certainly not what it could have been, and it's not what it should have been. It wasn't the bridge of 30 years, it was the same 1-year-war then a huge gap as we already had. There was a great opportunity to tell a story about the Empire in decline but the sheer determination of the loyal troops fighting to survive and rebuild. This is from the Star Wars wiki article on the time-period we expected to be covered.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Cold_war
The defeat of the Galactic Empire at the Battle of Jakku one year after the Battle of Endor,[7] and the conclusion of the Galactic Civil War[5] in 5 ABY[7] marked what would prove to be the beginnings of decreased hostilities between the shattered superpower and the New Republic. Not long after, a conference was held on Chandrila between Grand Vizier Mas Amedda, during which the latter formerly surrendered to the New Republic. Although peace was formerly declared, fighting between the new government and certain Imperial factions would continue for quite some time, until the hostilities would finally die out, with some warlords either suing for peace or escaping into deep space. Those Imperial officers who did not yield were then declared enemies of the state.
Some elements of the Empire's leadership and military rejected the stipulations, and, while the violence did not resume, the New Republic and an organized remnant of the Galactic Empire became locked into a cold war.[8] While this standoff was of certain significance, the rest of the Empire, while disjointed, did not cease to exist by any means. As per the conditions of the Galactic Concordance, the Imperial capital of Coruscant was ceded over to the New Republic, where a provisional government was established. Agreeing to the terms of the Concordance, all non-military officials and those officers who respected all conditions were granted pardons. Many Imperials within the higher echelons of the armed forces refused to immediately agree to the terms, and, in turn, they were branded as war criminals. Despite this, the empire was allowed to survive in the form of successor states that maintained full sovereignty over territories that did not fall under the New Republic's jurisdiction. With Coruscant no longer the seat of executive power for the Empire, Imperial leadership was forced reconstitute itself. As such the central Imperial government was officially dissolved, with some of its leaders going as far to leave the Empire altogether and joining the New Republic. Additionally, those territories that fell under the authority of these former Imperials were assimilated into the New Republic.[5] Although some chose to do this, there were still those who remained loyal to the actual Imperial establishment, unlike their comrades who joined the restored Republic, those Imperials who sought independent sovereignty, and the aggressive hardliners who refused to acquiesce to the Concordance's stipulations.
As patriotism and loyalty towards what remained of the true Empire did not die with its fragmentation, there were still dedicated Imperials, both civilian and military, who remained dedicated to its existence. The organized Imperial Navy and constituents the Empire's war machine were still very much consolidated, as not all forces had joined with warlords or the hardliners who had retreated and partitioned themselves in regions outside of the New Republic's influence. As the Empire was simply too vast to disband altogether, a conditional accord was decided upon between the New Republic and the Galactic Empire in regards to what would finally become of the latter's foundational aggregation and the powers that it still held. The agreement called for a conditional restructuring of the Empire, allowing it to persist as an official and self-governed entity, but ensuring limitations on its ability to wage war. Imperial borders were redrawn and a successor state was formed by what remained of the old Imperial establishment, and, as per the terms of the Galactic Concordance, the new government that would ultimately agree to the stipulations. At the command of the New Republic, the remnant leaders ordered that all fleets that were still loyal to the Empire be recalled to the Core and Inner Rim, although Empire remained a divided force, with the remnant factions that went rogue refusing to acknowledge the order, now standing as a hawkish confederation locked into a cold war with the New Republic.[16]
Despite the reluctant agreement, some militarized factions of the Empire refused to admit defeat, as the empire in the Core Worlds and Inner Rim had. While these hardliners did not actively carry out any major military campaigns against the New Republic and vice versa, both powers remained hostile towards one another. Although the Old Empire was decentralized and divided into various official and recognized states that preserved the Imperial tradition in certain non-Republic sectors, the residual empire founded by those hardliners was considerable enough to be a cause of concern to the New Republic, thereby prolonging the cold war. Since resentments left over from the Galactic Civil War never truly went away, with those on both sides despising the other, the cold war between the non-compliant Imperial remnant and the New Republic would last for decades. As it wore on, the remnant began to retreat and then colonize the Unknown Regions of the Galaxy, where it would reconsolidate its power and initiate a rapid military buildup. During this period, political hardliners who opposed the Republic assumed leadership of the remnant and transitioned it into the First Order, a powerful military junta based upon the policies and principles of the "Old Empire".[8]
See, there's the story we could have had. You could have kept Iden Versio's disapproval of Operation Cinder, but you needn't have had her defect to the Rebels/Republic. It might have made a better story if she upheld her ideals in the Empire and worked as a Special Forces Agent to sabotage Operation Cinder from inside. With that out the way, she continues as an Imperial to the Battle of Jakku where again she must retreat from the conceded battle. From that point on, she could have been a character watching the remnants of the Empire crumble around her while still holding strong to the Imperial dream. You could have had missions ideal for a Special Forces Operative in a Cold War - intel, assassinations, extractions, political manipulation, until eventually she is invited to join the fledgling First Order - no need to give away plot details that the Story Group may wish to expand upon later.
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See, there's the story we could have had. You could have kept Iden Versio's disapproval of Operation Cinder, but you needn't have had her defect to the Rebels/Republic. It might have made a better story if she upheld her ideals in the Empire and worked as a Special Forces Agent to sabotage Operation Cinder from inside. With that out the way, she continues as an Imperial to the Battle of Jakku where again she must retreat from the conceded battle. From that point on, she could have been a character watching the remnants of the Empire crumble around her while still holding strong to the Imperial dream. You could have had missions ideal for a Special Forces Operative in a Cold War - intel, assassinations, extractions, political manipulation, until eventually she is invited to join the fledgling First Order - no need to give away plot details that the Story Group may wish to expand upon later.
Their is a way to fix this and I know how.
I will use italics to explain.
After the part where Del is killed we hear voices call out to him. Del wakes up in his Inferno Squadron Armor to find Gideon telling him ot get up. Suffering from shock and panic he attacks Gideon but is stun as Gideon says something about how he remembers it all wrong. We then find out Del was in some sort of twisted Cryopod and that Iden is next to him in another. Gideon opens Iden's Cryopod and she reacts the same way. We then play this segiment as Gideon as he along with a couple of Imperial Stormtroopers help evac Iden and Del to a shuttle. They are attack on the way their by strange New Republiic forces that have strange markings. Gideon, and the stormtroopers along with the knocked-out Iden and Del make their escape in shuttle as the base explodes. Iden and Del wake up chain to beds with Gideon sitting in a corner looking relieved. He explains they have been through a lot and aren't thinking straight. Iden and Del don't trust him after Operation: Cinder on Vardos. Gideon sighs telling them they do not know fact from fiction and that their Memories had been alter. Asking for proof Gideon displays holo footage of them fighting with the Empire on Jakku and footage from other engagements. That's when we find out that Iden and Del were victims of a extremist element of the New Republic who had changed their memories, but the memories began following back. We learn that not only did Operation: Cinder not target Vardos, but that they had their Memories Merged with two Rebel Soldiers who died at Jakku. They asked why and we learn of a shadowy rouge element of the New Republic that capture Iden and Del during the battle of Jakku and experimented on them. They were capture after Iden went with Del in their tie fighters to go and try rescue Iden's Father from his ship. They encounter a extremist Rebel group of boarded the star destroyer and capture Iden and Del. This group took Iden and Del to a Blacksite where they had their memories alter so they could be a new super soldier against the Empire. When asked how long they had been captured for Gideon tells them 2 years and that Vardos, Pillo, and other worlds have now become Imperial Holdouts. So dawning their helmets Gideon reflected how he always wanted to be in commanded, but its good to have Del and Iden back. Maybe have Del and Iden kiss? But it ends with them entering the deck of the Corvus and being greeted by Imperial soldiers looking to Iden for Guidance. Iden then gives a speech about how they are not just fighting for the future of the Empire, but Vardos and Order. She then orders to make the jump to Vardos as the game either ends, or the game continues showing Inferno Squadron beyond the Battle of Jakku.
Their. I just made a genius solution to our problem.
also like to mention this was the original description of Inferno Squadron
In 4 ABY, Iden, Hask and Meeko participated in the Battle of Endor. They were on the forest moon when the Rebels destroyed the second Death Star. After this, they sought to avenge Emperor Palpatine,[2] who had perished on the station.[3In 4 ABY, Iden, Hask and Meeko participated in the Battle of Endor. They were on the forest moon when the Rebels destroyed the second Death Star. After this, they sought to avenge Emperor Palpatine,[2] who had perished on the station.[3
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Ugh, no, making it all just a dream would be even worse.
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ehhh it be more brain washing and kind of messed up.
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Their are many options to fix Iden's story
1. You could say that maybe some rouge element of the rebellion(Maybe EX-Partisans wanting revenge on Iden?) sabotage Operation: Cinder so that it targets Vardos. It would add a whole new level a betrayal and tragedy to Iden's story
2. You could say that Maybe Del when Del went to Pillio that he got capture by members of The New Republic and that when Iden and Gideon show up Iden gets capture. You then could say Iden and Del then "break free" and no one questions a thing, but In reality they had been brainwashed and therefore when Vardos was targeted it trigger the brain washing.
3. Have Iden's memories alter?
My problem with Iden defecting is that it doesn't fit with what we read of Iden in the books. With Del its a bit of a stretch and quiet honestly he did say he follow Iden's orders. The biggest problem with what they did for the story is that it A: Breaks lore and B: Undermines the whole point of Iden being a Imperial
Lets look at it like this:
A: Lore is broken too much in this game. The first big instance of lore breaking kicks off in mission 5(AKA Vardos mission). In this mission we see something that doesn't make sense, which is Garrick Veriso doing what he did. Garrick Veriso in the book stress the importance of Vardos and how he values you it a lot, hence why he brought it into the Empire. I don't care if the sentinels claimed it as a order, Garrick Veriso has defied orders before for his daughter so why follow orders that undermine his daughters loyalty? The next thing is that this games make no reference Seyn Marana and the fact that she died for Inferno Squadron. This further breaks the whole defection to the New Republic by Del and Iden. Also Does Iden even join the rebellion? She must know that they murder Gideon Hask's parents, leaving him a orphan. Also Bespin was under a warlords control.
The thing that offended me most about the story is the lack of references to the books. I just hate it and it pisses me off.
B: Iden being a Imperial turned rebel is also what killed the campaign for most. We have had way to many Imperial Defectors and it is getting old fast. And this was one of the games main selling points, that we Fight as a Imperial for the future of the Empire. The other problem is the trailers all hint at different things that never happen. Where is the part where Iden gives a speech to stormtroopers on Vardos about how hope cannot save them?
I think what happened is the story group intervene or EA just advertised this game wrong. I believe more likely the story group interfered and changed Iden and Del's story. I really wish we could retcon the defection out of the cannon since I don't understand it.
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Thank you for the Post!
I was considering buying the game for the Singleplayer....
well now i won't buy it at all and stick to the original one!
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I will forever use this thread to show why new star wars fans will never want to explore legends.
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I will forever use this thread to show why new star wars fans will never want to explore legends.
*sigh*
Dude you do realize that more people prefer the Thrawn Trilogy over the New movies? The lore breaks of legends were decades in the making. The new cannons lore started only a few years ago.
This thread shows why we need more Imperial stories.
don't get me wrong I enjoy some elements like the Lando mission, and The Han Solo one. But things like the defection and the lack of first order was what bothered me.
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There is another way to fix it.
Iden being a double agent.
Remember his capture at the beggining? And later when she surrendered even Shriv said to Lando that he thought it was a trap?
Let's say that it is, just a really long and ellaborated one, and one Del or Hask knew nothing about.
I remember when Admiral Versio gave Iden her orders in front of palpybot, and it wasn't explained at all what they were. He just said that they are unusual. And I don't consider the protection of a Star Destroyer AKA an escort mission unusual, even if the cargo is valueable. Especially if the cargo is valueable.
Joining the rebels for an undetermined time is.
If we approach this logic it starts to make sense why Iden went from I want nothing to do with your rebellion, we gave the intel and just want to save our skin. Then: All right, just one battle and then. All the way to: All right, we will fight for the right cause. in the span of what seems like maybe an hour or two.
If wetake this idea as the base, there is nothing in the story that could contradict it.
No, not even the scene on the Star Destroyer going down, as the admiral was the one giving out the orders, and might have been afraid that the rebels will look trough the ship's records or something.
And then the ending speach from Hask gets a whole new meaning if we consider that he might have gained knowledge of what really went on.
Just listen to it with this in mind, and it gets really weird how much it fits.
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There is another way to fix it.
Iden being a double agent.
Remember his capture at the beggining? And later when she surrendered even Shriv said to Lando that he thought it was a trap?
Let's say that it is, just a really long and ellaborated one, and one Del or Hask knew nothing about.
I remember when Admiral Versio gave Iden her orders in front of palpybot, and it wasn't explained at all what they were. He just said that they are unusual. And I don't consider the protection of a Star Destroyer AKA an escort mission unusual, even if the cargo is valueable. Especially if the cargo is valueable.
Joining the rebels for an undetermined time is.
If we approach this logic it starts to make sense why Iden went from I want nothing to do with your rebellion, we gave the intel and just want to save our skin. Then: All right, just one battle and then. All the way to: All right, we will fight for the right cause. in the span of what seems like maybe an hour or two.
If wetake this idea as the base, there is nothing in the story that could contradict it.
No, not even the scene on the Star Destroyer going down, as the admiral was the one giving out the orders, and might have been afraid that the rebels will look trough the ship's records or something.
And then the ending speach from Hask gets a whole new meaning if we consider that he might have gained knowledge of what really went on.
Just listen to it with this in mind, and it gets really weird how much it fits.
That could work, but at the same time would Iden really do something like this?
Keep in mind Del defected as well which means either he would have needed to know as well, or Iden is tricking him which breaks the love story between them.
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TBH, I really wouldn't mind breaking it, but it doesn't have to happen.
Del only defects because he loves Iden and thinks she is serious and Iden loves Del as well, she just doesn't tell him because orders keep her from doing so.
Also if we go from Iden loves Del, then she doesn't tell him exacrly because she loves him and doesn't want to break his heart.
But to be honest, I really don't like that it always have to break down on love every single goddamn time. It is starting to be cliche and the first time Del and Iden started talking I immediately thought: "Now A, they're gonna fall in love. or B, One falls for the other and the other one betrays him/her." And looks like option A won.
And I am not against a good love story, don't misunderstand, but Other than they were both Inferno, what is common within Iden and Del that was shown in the campaign? I haven't seen anything really. It basicly boils down to You are woman, I am man or the other way around, and we know each other. THE END.
That's why I wouldn't mind breaking them up. If they would have handled it better I wouldn't dare touch it. But they didn't.
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Their are many options to fix Iden's story
1. You could say that maybe some rouge element of the rebellion(Maybe EX-Partisans wanting revenge on Iden?) sabotage Operation: Cinder so that it targets Vardos. It would add a whole new level a betrayal and tragedy to Iden's story
2. You could say that Maybe Del when Del went to Pillio that he got capture by members of The New Republic and that when Iden and Gideon show up Iden gets capture. You then could say Iden and Del then "break free" and no one questions a thing, but In reality they had been brainwashed and therefore when Vardos was targeted it trigger the brain washing.
3. Have Iden's memories alter?
My problem with Iden defecting is that it doesn't fit with what we read of Iden in the books. With Del its a bit of a stretch and quiet honestly he did say he follow Iden's orders. The biggest problem with what they did for the story is that it A: Breaks lore and B: Undermines the whole point of Iden being a Imperial
Lets look at it like this:
A: Lore is broken too much in this game. The first big instance of lore breaking kicks off in mission 5(AKA Vardos mission). In this mission we see something that doesn't make sense, which is Garrick Veriso doing what he did. Garrick Veriso in the book stress the importance of Vardos and how he values you it a lot, hence why he brought it into the Empire. I don't care if the sentinels claimed it as a order, Garrick Veriso has defied orders before for his daughter so why follow orders that undermine his daughters loyalty? The next thing is that this games make no reference Seyn Marana and the fact that she died for Inferno Squadron. This further breaks the whole defection to the New Republic by Del and Iden. Also Does Iden even join the rebellion? She must know that they murder Gideon Hask's parents, leaving him a orphan. Also Bespin was under a warlords control.
The thing that offended me most about the story is the lack of references to the books. I just hate it and it pisses me off.
B: Iden being a Imperial turned rebel is also what killed the campaign for most. We have had way to many Imperial Defectors and it is getting old fast. And this was one of the games main selling points, that we Fight as a Imperial for the future of the Empire. The other problem is the trailers all hint at different things that never happen. Where is the part where Iden gives a speech to stormtroopers on Vardos about how hope cannot save them?
I think what happened is the story group intervene or EA just advertised this game wrong. I believe more likely the story group interfered and changed Iden and Del's story. I really wish we could retcon the defection out of the cannon since I don't understand it.
What did you expect? Disney to take risks and be original? Screw that! There's money to be made with phone in nostalgia!
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TBH, I really wouldn't mind breaking it, but it doesn't have to happen.
Del only defects because he loves Iden and thinks she is serious and Iden loves Del as well, she just doesn't tell him because orders keep her from doing so.
Also if we go from Iden loves Del, then she doesn't tell him exacrly because she loves him and doesn't want to break his heart.
But to be honest, I really don't like that it always have to break down on love every single goddamn time. It is starting to be cliche and the first time Del and Iden started talking I immediately thought: "Now A, they're gonna fall in love. or B, One falls for the other and the other one betrays him/her." And looks like option A won.
And I am not against a good love story, don't misunderstand, but Other than they were both Inferno, what is common within Iden and Del that was shown in the campaign? I haven't seen anything really. It basicly boils down to You are woman, I am man or the other way around, and we know each other. THE END.
That's why I wouldn't mind breaking them up. If they would have handled it better I wouldn't dare touch it. But they didn't.
In the book their is more.
At one point Del and Gideon are undercover and are in the custody of a pirate queen. Their mission is to convince her they are partisans so they could be led to the dreamers. While talking with the pirate queen Del comments on how attractive she was. What's funny is that he comments on how the pirate queen reminds him of Iden when he describes them both as "Strong and beautiful" which then Del realizes he is thinking of how beautiful Iden was and shrugs it off as too much alcohol.
Iden and Del also tended to have similar views of the Empire and both are generally good people.
What I fail to understand is how Iden and Del have no problem killing stormtroopers when Iden constantly reflects in the books about how the rebels don't really know that their are people under the masks. Another thing is that Iden gets really upset after mentioning all the good people they lost on the death star, such as Colonel Yulearan. We also here how Gideon Hask was a orphan who lost his family to the rebellion(not the partisans) in a terror attack on the kuat shipyards. That is one of the reasons Gideon is so loyal is because he hates the rebellion for taking his family from him.
The book destroys Iden and Del's defection, but also things involving that shitty star wars mobile game also break the defection. In Star wars uprising the Governor of the Anoat Sector Adheard had placed a Iron Blockaded over the sector, and was trying to hide the Emperor's death. We then find out Leia, and Lando had been recruiting terrorists, criminals(not like common thugs, but murders, rapists, and mobsters), and various crime families to help start a rebellion in the sector.
Now think about that. That is something Iden and Del would never do. They would never fund criminals to take over a planet. I could understand Iden and Del working to stop Operation: Cinder, but I don't understand why they would join the rebellion. As they said the campaign themselves they feared being thrown in Sunspot prison(which is a prison design to hold imperials)
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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.
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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.
Even so, they could of at least made an attempt to make it interesting instead of the same old rehash of Imperials defecting to the Alliance.
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Ya...like many have pointed out, the story would have been far more interesting if Iden and Del had worked within the Empire to stop Operation Cinder as opposed to simply defecting to the New Republic. But I understand the simplicity for a campaign that was more or less just included as something extra.
When your dealing with something like star wars, fans care for story and lore. You can not tell me that making Iden do a full 180 like that would make sense in real life.
That's like a US Marine defecting to the Islamic State because a drone strike killed some people who were not meant to be killed.
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When your dealing with something like star wars, fans care for story and lore. You can not tell me that making Iden do a full 180 like that would make sense in real life.
That's like a US Marine defecting to the Islamic State because a drone strike killed some people who were not meant to be killed.
Which has happened, but that is really inaccurate. What would be better is "It would be like a Marine defecting because the US killed his home town."
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Which has happened, but that is really inaccurate. What would be better is "It would be like a Marine defecting because the US killed his home town."
Well...in fairness...Iden defected because the Empire did kill her home for no reason whatsoever other than blinding following the last orders of their dead Emperor. I don't like how quickly she defected to the New Republic, but it's not like Iden changing allegiance is completely unreasonable. It was just done in a boring and lazy way.
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Well...in fairness...Iden defected because the Empire did kill her home for no reason whatsoever other than blinding following the last orders of their dead Emperor. I don't like how quickly she defected to the New Republic, but it's not like Iden changing allegiance is completely unreasonable. It was just done in a boring and lazy way.
Its like if the President of the United States was killed and the response of the US government is to purge Texas with the shitty Geostorm thing.
i also like to point out that Iden never returned to Vardos to try and rebuild it along with the NR. I also like to mention that rumors have suggested the NR knew about Operation: Cinder and chose not to act until the Empire began killing people. What a bunch of dicks. In fact none of Iden's choices in the game make sense. In the book Iden believes in the Empire so much that she hates going undercover as a defector. Her mother told her to serve the Empire and make her proud. Why is this not addressed?
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Its like if the President of the United States was killed and the response of the US government is to purge Texas with the shitty Geostorm thing.
i also like to point out that Iden never returned to Vardos to try and rebuild it along with the NR. I also like to mention that rumors have suggested the NR knew about Operation: Cinder and chose not to act until the Empire began killing people. What a bunch of dicks. In fact none of Iden's choices in the game make sense. In the book Iden believes in the Empire so much that she hates going undercover as a defector. Her mother told her to serve the Empire and make her proud. Why is this not addressed?
I think you are missing the point of Operation Cinder. It was designed to be counterproductive, stupid, and accelerate the downfall of the Empire. In the new canon, Palpatine literally believed that if he died, the Empire had to die with him. Palpatine purposely picked a handful of blindly loyal (stupid) officers that would truly believe Operation Cinder would be for the benefit of the Empire.
It's suppose to look absurd and stupid. It would be to the average person. It wouldn't be to a fanatical, self-destructive Imperial.
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I think you are missing the point of Operation Cinder. It was designed to be counterproductive, stupid, and accelerate the downfall of the Empire. In the new canon, Palpatine literally believed that if he died, the Empire had to die with him. Palpatine purposely picked a handful of blindly loyal (stupid) officers that would truly believe Operation Cinder would be for the benefit of the Empire.
It's suppose to look absurd and stupid. It would be to the average person. It wouldn't be to a fanatical, self-destructive Imperial.
But that is not who Garrick Versio is. The book highlights this by showing that his love for his daughter is more important then his love of the Empire.The thing is that Papaltine's plan should not work and it couldnt not possibly work. It requires certains things to happen a certain way and it ulimately confuses people.
Youtubers, casual star wars fans, and some lore nuts had trouble understanding the leep in logic. Levelcap called it a cop-out, Star Wars Explained said it was bad writing, and some of my friends were just pissed off because they didnt want to play as the rebellion/NR. In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group. Many of my friends complained that Operation: Cinder made watching Geostorm sound like a fun time. The reason it is stupid is not becuase its meant to be. They wrote themselves into a corner and fucked all lore now. We have this obsured 30 year gap where little to no fighting between the IR, the FO, and the NR took place. They havent fleshed out lore enough. In fact the reason Iden's defection is bad is becuase of how the game was marketed. We clearly saw things in both the launch trailer, and the reveal trailer that never appeared. What seems to have happened was that they reworte most of the story for no reason.
I for once want to play as a memeber of the Empire that stays with the Empire. Its a better story that we rarely get.
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But that is not who Garrick Versio is. The book highlights this by showing that his love for his daughter is more important then his love of the Empire.The thing is that Papaltine's plan should not work and it couldnt not possibly work. It requires certains things to happen a certain way and it ulimately confuses people.
Youtubers, casual star wars fans, and some lore nuts had trouble understanding the leep in logic. Levelcap called it a cop-out, Star Wars Explained said it was bad writing, and some of my friends were just pissed off because they didnt want to play as the rebellion/NR. In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group. Many of my friends complained that Operation: Cinder made watching Geostorm sound like a fun time. The reason it is stupid is not becuase its meant to be. They wrote themselves into a corner and fucked all lore now. We have this obsured 30 year gap where little to no fighting between the IR, the FO, and the NR took place. They havent fleshed out lore enough. In fact the reason Iden's defection is bad is becuase of how the game was marketed. We clearly saw things in both the launch trailer, and the reveal trailer that never appeared. What seems to have happened was that they reworte most of the story for no reason.
I for once want to play as a memeber of the Empire that stays with the Empire. Its a better story that we rarely get.
Well, it's Star Wars. They're been dumber stuff done with superweapons before in Legends. Operation Cinder's "storms" are pretty tame. We're lucky they didn't just make the satellites align to fire some superlaser into the planet's core or something.
I can agree with the marketing being deceptive and the plot forcing Garrick Versio into a stupid role. It is what it is unfortunately.
However, Operation Cinder really isn't that implausible by "Star Wars logic." Again, all it takes is a few fanatical Imperials. It's no more contrived than Palpatine's rise to power in the Prequel Trilogy, which completely hinged on the Jedi essentially being gullible as hell. The EU Palpatine did the same shit post-Episode 6 too; he sat on Byss and let the Imperials kill each other over Coruscant to "cull the weak" before revealing himself again to the galaxy.
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However, Operation Cinder really isn't that implausible by "Star Wars logic." Again, all it takes is a few fanatical Imperials. It's no more contrived than Palpatine's rise to power in the Prequel Trilogy, which completely hinded on the Jedi essentially being gullible as hell. The EU Palpatine did the same shit post-Episode 6 too; he sat on Byss and let the Imperials kill each other over Coruscant to "cull the weak" before revealing himself again to the galaxy.
palpatine's rise is simple power politics 101. HE played the victim and he the all the power he needed. HE manpiulated people using his darkside followers. Keep in mind as well that for Operation: Cinder to work it has to have certain people do certain thinsg without loyalty question. EVen finatical Imperials would have a hard time doing what they did.
And your agurment is a false equivlancey. These senarios are uncompareable. Palpatine in the EU sat on Byss so he could build up his superweapons then call together the remaining Imperials to launch his invasion. Hidiing out and bidding his time is something Papaltine did. Palaptine played the long game.
Lets be honest as well. This happened over 1 YEAR. 1 Year is absurd. if it was fives years then okay, but a year? Seriously? The Empire outnumbered the rebellion even with Operation: Cinder and the Contingency in play. Their fleet is bigger, theid resources are vas and they outnumbered the rebellion 100 to 1
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palpatine's rise is simple power politics 101. HE played the victim and he the all the power he needed. HE manpiulated people using his darkside followers. Keep in mind as well that for Operation: Cinder to work it has to have certain people do certain thinsg without loyalty question. EVen finatical Imperials would have a hard time doing what they did.
And your agurment is a false equivlancey. These senarios are uncompareable. Palpatine in the EU sat on Byss so he could build up his superweapons then call together the remaining Imperials to launch his invasion. Hidiing out and bidding his time is something Papaltine did. Palaptine played the long game.
Lets be honest as well. This happened over 1 YEAR. 1 Year is absurd. if it was fives years then okay, but a year? Seriously? The Empire outnumbered the rebellion even with Operation: Cinder and the Contingency in play. Their fleet is bigger, theid resources are vas and they outnumbered the rebellion 100 to 1
Shadow Hand effectively killed the Imperial Navy and that was in one year. He also purposely pitted imps together because of survival of the fittest. They both play out in a similar fashion so they are easy to compare. It's also Star Wars, if you expected a magnum opus you might want to look somewhere else.
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Shadow Hand effectively killed the Imperial Navy and that was in one year. He also purposely pitted imps together because of survival of the fittest. They both play out in a similar fashion so they are easy to compare. It's also Star Wars, if you expected a magnum opus you might want to look somewhere else.
they are not the even remotely similar.
Shadow Hand: May the best be worthy to be at my side during the Dark Empire(Also it was two years and the Imperial force was massive)
Operation Cinder: Please kill a bunch of innocent Imperial citizens because i said so. Also since people really love Geostorm lets use the shitty Geostorm weapons. Also hey you know this dickback here Gallius Rax? Listen to him! This is only because I lost my life and my new battlestation along with the cherry coke disepenser.
They simply arent compareble and bring in in Legends arguements is not vaild because (Being honest) the legends canonity suffers from having too much going on at once. Also both events aren smiliar becuase their is alot more going on with Shadow Hand and the Dark Empire
Shadow Hand: (why it makes sense) It comes off the back of Thrawn's humilation of the NR military during his campagin. The Imperial Warlordds band together and launch a massive campagin. They succeded because A. Coursant and its sourrding systems had light security as the NR engage Imperial forces in the Outer rim and B because they combined force was greater then the NR. They reason it fell so fast is simply infighting, conspiracies to kill Palpatine, and Luke SkyWalker fucking everything up. We also know the Carno Jax, and the intergiurm Council was playing their own shadow games. its acutally something more in depht lore nuts could talk about. Also all planets attacked by world devastors were NR loyalist worlds and are critical to the NR. It lasts from late 9ABY to the end of 11ABY.
Operation Cinder: It takes place insantly after Endor. How do i know this? Its because the cutsecene involing the messenger takes place roughly 2 days, but keep in mind it must have spoken to Garrick Veriso before hand. The plan required the destruction of Vardos, Naboo, Fondor, Bur Komin, and a few other Imperial worlds. The reasoning given to the Imperial Commanders was that it was retalation fear tactics to remind the galaxy who was in controled. Some imperials didnt agreed to this however we have no evidence to support a Imperial Civil War. Their is not anything i found that could lead to that information. So assume that the Empire goes along with plan then their army, navy, and Intelligence is somehow crippled duirng this gap. We dont know how either. We also dont know how many days, or months past when Operation cinder was launch. We do know the Empire brutally crushed, and massacured along with their families during the battle of Jakku which ended the War. the reason the war ended is because Mas Amidda bcame the new Imperial Leader and opted to surrender after being threaten by the NR. A couple groups chose not to stand down saying that this was unfair for the NR to force planets to join them. Other more radical Imperials formed the FO. THe ones who didnt dont like the FO and arent trusting of them.
In conclusion the reason Operation Cinder doesnt work is becuase of bad lore and bad writing. we get little to no details and we know almost nothing.
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In fact ever since Rogue One alot of my friends think the rebellion is basically like a space version of ISIS, the Lord's Ressitance, or any other insane rogue terrorist group.
If those friends are American, you may want to point out next time the subject comes up that the Revolutionary War was a rebellion, and that George Washington and most of the Founding Fathers were fighting against their lawful government - and that many were motivated as much by greed and not wanting to pay taxes to Britain after it had just fought a war that largely enriched the colonies as they were any freedom-based ideology. Do they also think the American Revolutionary War was just a bunch of evil terrorists running amok?
Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above). ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards. The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.
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Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above). ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards. The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.
2 of them are Americans, 3 were Brits, and a couple were Germans. Using ISIS was a bit of a poor choice of wording from one of the Americans but we argue which faction the rebellion acts most like. The three real life groups we came up with were: The Lord's Resistance, the IRA, and the last one was some Anarchist Communist group. Saw Gerrra's and the rebellion's war tactics match up the most with the IRA. They are a freedom fighting movement that wanted to liberate Northern Ireland and tired to do soo through extreme tactics. Of everyone in our group chat the Germans were most supportive of Imperial doctrine follow by the Brits, then Me and the Americans were a bit divided.
I will admit that as a American i am not proud of what some people did during that war and some of the things America has done, but wars and revolts always have violence and their will always be good people on both sides of a conflict no matter what. Good and bad are merely just labels that ignore the fact that War is black and white.
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I'm guessing you meant to say at the end that war is NOT black and white, rather than that it is.
That said, some grays are darker than others - modern Western armies commit a fraction of the atrocities that medieval armies did as a matter of course and hold their soldiers to greater standards of accountability (sacking and raping entire cities is now a war crime rather than how you reward your troops). The Western front in WWII certainly saw war crimes and brutality, but nothing close to the scale at which such occurred on the Soviet front. Neither the British nor Revolutionary troops during the American Revolution indulged in large-scale slaughter of civilians - that scene in The Patriot where a British colonel burns a town in their church is utter nonsense.
The Rebellion proper (I don't know the details of Saw's group, but it is distinct from the Rebel Alliance by the time of Rogue One because of its tactics) is never shown attacking a civilian target, at least not in the movies - it consistently limits itself to military and govt. targets. It doesn't engage in anything remotely close to LRA barbarism, and while I'd tend to agree that the IRA isn't a bad comparison, it remains a bit off - parts of the IRA did target civilians at times, and the IRA was essentially a colonial rebellion against external rule rather than an internal rebellion seeking to overthrow a govt. (the IRA had no illusions that it would topple the British govt.). The Rebels definitely did not argue in favor of anarchic communism, so I'm curious how that comparison was made.
I always appreciate it when people argue in favor of the Empire, as I like knowing who the authoritarians around me are. ;)
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The Rebellion proper (I don't know the details of Saw's group, but it is distinct from the Rebel Alliance by the time of Rogue One because of its tactics) is never shown attacking a civilian target, at least not in the movies - it consistently limits itself to military and govt. targets. It doesn't engage in anything remotely close to LRA barbarism, and while I'd tend to agree that the IRA isn't a bad comparison, it remains a bit off - parts of the IRA did target civilians at times, and the IRA was essentially a colonial rebellion against external rule rather than an internal rebellion seeking to overthrow a govt. (the IRA had no illusions that it would topple the British govt.). The Rebels definitely did not argue in favor of anarchic communism, so I'm curious how that comparison was made.
The reason Jyn Erso was arrseted was becuase she forge IDs to get Saw and his buddies into a Imperial festival full of Civilians where Saw and his group fired Fletch launchers into crowds. it total into the thousands.
one other example is in bloodline where Leia is being interviewed by NR officals about any war crimes she commited and the actions of the partisans. Leia defends these actions by saying that the deaths were need ed to ensure the Empire would fall.
To put it simply niether faction gives a fuck about civilian casualties. Members of each faction like Thrawn, and Luke seem to care but not the general faction as a whole.
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When did thrawn care about civilian casualties?, it was mentioned in rebels that when he cleared a sector of rebel presence the civilian casualties were heeps higher than normal.
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When did thrawn care about civilian casualties?, it was mentioned in rebels that when he cleared a sector of rebel presence the civilian casualties were heeps higher than normal.
SPOILER WARRING FOR THRAWN BOOK!
When Thrawn had his cmapagin at Baton he first offer the rebel leader to surrender and join the Chiss Asendancy, and his people can go home unharmed. The Rebel Leader says No and so Thrawn had to launch a battle with the help of Colonerl Yularen. The rebels decided that the besy course of action was to put thier base on top of a massive civilian center/factory area. The rebels basically force people to move weapons around and go through annoying military checkpoints. Govenor Pryc was present(she was their looking for he parents) on the ground and she trigged a explosion that killed alot of the civilians(she also killed a ISB agent to cover her tracks). Kallus in that secene was just being a dick, because he clearled never read what really happened. Thrawn was annoyed at the unnessary death, but he accepted that he could not have done something about it.
other instances include when the dreamers from Inferno Squadron under the guides of the NR/ rebel alliance blew up a school and killed honorable Imperials.
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To put it simply niether faction gives a fuck about civilian casualties. Members of each faction like Thrawn, and Luke seem to care but not the general faction as a whole.
This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree. I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally build and used a planet killer. The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?
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This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree. I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally builds and uses planet killers. The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?
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This, I think, is an unfair interpretation - just because both sides have caused civilian deaths doesn't mean that neither cares, nor does it mean that they are uncaring to anything close to the same degree. I can't speak to how it fares in the new books, but in Legends the NR military consistently and actively takes risks to avoid causing collateral damage, which is contrasted with an Empire that literally build and used a planet killer. The Empire specifically designed and built terror weapons that had civilian populations as their intended targets - does the NR have anything comparable?
canon rebellion man is way more evil and corrupt then legends rebellion. Canon rebellion tried to steal the superlaser in order to attack coursant. They also stole medical supplies from Imperial medical facilities which was being use to treat soldiers, the attempted to activate the Malachor superweapon, capture a imperial's family and threaten to force them to drink poisonous water, launched attacks on schools, and other forms of terrorism. Also Cassian Andor was a fulcrum agent and so was Kallus and Ashoka. Once of the things fulcrum Agents did was "Silence countacts if needed" Basically what Cassian did to that poor guy at the start of Rogue One. Leia was also okay with civilian Casualties as evident in bloodline.
Alderran also funded the Partisans and the dreamers in their criminal and terrorist activities.
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Medical supplies for soldiers are something I view as a legit target for a resistance group - the targets being harmed are military ones. Likewise silencing contacts, including the way Cassian did at the beginning of R1, because a single security leak can doom an entire resistance group. Resistance groups have to play by different rules than a govt. supported professional military because they cannot win a straight-up fight. Many of their actions may well be horrible in some way or another, but the question is whether a group happily embraces such tactics or does so out of regrettable necessity. The argument can also be made that in a state of total war, civilians are legitimate targets to a certain extent - the Allies didn't bomb Axis cities for fun, they did it to diminish industrial capacity and civilian support for the war effort. A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.
You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?). Am I incorrect here? Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?
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If those friends are American, you may want to point out next time the subject comes up that the Revolutionary War was a rebellion, and that George Washington and most of the Founding Fathers were fighting against their lawful government - and that many were motivated as much by greed and not wanting to pay taxes to Britain after it had just fought a war that largely enriched the colonies as they were any freedom-based ideology. Do they also think the American Revolutionary War was just a bunch of evil terrorists running amok?
Seriously, though, your friends have no idea what ISIS is if they think the Rebellion compares unfavorably to it (likewise the American Revolution, despite the above). ISIS is extremist religious fanaticism attempting to build an empire on that fanaticism, or at least usher in the end times through it, and it has absolutely zero redeeming qualities as judged by reality-based standards. The same is not true of the Rebels by a long shot.
If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.
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If anything ISIS is more comparable to the First Order, pitiless, incapable of compromise with any ideology that is not its own with complete disregard for the lives of its soldiers.
Also the forced conscription of children.
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Also the forced conscription of children.
Exactly
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You are also referring to the rebellion as a singular entity, when my understanding is that it didn't begin to truly unify until the Rebels time period, and even then it was only a loose alliance involving a number of factions - one that kicked out Saw's group because it was too extreme (or was it that Saw's group split because the rest weren't extreme enough?). Am I incorrect here? Were the plans to destroy Coruscant or attack schools sanctioned by the majority, or were they the actions of specific factions?
I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.
I will go over each group now.
Partisans: Founded by Saw Gerra based on his lessons under Anakin Skywalker in gerrila warfare, the partisans were not kicked out persay but they acted more independent which is why their intel was better than the entire alliances. They are known for both their brutally, and how more terrifed people were of them then the Empire. Following the events fo Rogue One the partisans split into two subfactions: The dreamers who were wiped out by Inferno Squadron, and some Partisans who stayed under Two Tubes. Two Tubes partisns returned to the ruin city of Jedah and built a base on the opposite side of Jedah. They later were welcomed fully back into the Alliance by Leia, Luke and Han Solo for a reason i dont fully understand other than the need for more men.
Free Ryloth Movement: This group was formed by Cham Syndulla from the remnants of the Twlek Resistance. They were considered extremists because they would often assault and murder Imperial officers in bars, houses, and public places. They also would kill people associated with said officers as a message. They are also known for not being very trusting to other rebel groups, but they still were represented in the rebel alliance. The attacks by this organization were often targeted at medical faliticties(both civilian and non civilian) and also would steal imperial WMDs.
Death Watch: Ahhh Death Watch. They started out as terrorist fighting the Mandolairan Goverment under duchess Satine and they contiued fighting past that into the days of the Empie. They are known for both their bruatality and without mercy attitudes towards their enemies. The Saxons one of the clans turned on House Vizla/Death Watch because they realize two things(1. They were being used and 2. they were dying to put a traitor and criminal on the throne.) The Saxons joined the Empire along with other Mandolrians(most were from the pacfist goverment). Death Watch is repsonisble for alot of the cvilia war between various Mandolrians clans and they have wiped out quiet a few of them already. They also tageted the capital with bombings and assainations of Mandolrians who were suspected of working for the Empire.
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I mean the taskforce sent to retreive the superlaser had Han Solo, and some top tier commanders. The attacks on schools were organized by elments of rebel high command(IE Alderram, taris, and a few others). Alderran which was backing the partisans, the dreamers, the free Ryloth movement, and Death Watch. These groups just mention were the most extreme of the rebel groups with most killing civilians, Imperial officer's families, and they would steal from people just to fund their war. Most of these groups(excpetion is the dreamers) also make up the biggest of the rebel factions interms of manpower, resources, and intelligence. These groups also hired mercinaries to do jobs for them for further manpower.
I'd have to read these stories to levy judgments, because context always matters. Though I tend to be accepting of stealing from people to fund a resistance, or hiring mercs when needed.
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A bombing raid blowing up a factory with the workers inside is a significantly different act than capturing that factory before lining up the workers and shooting them because you simply don't care about their lives.
Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?
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Just out of curiosity, how are those things different?
I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.
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I'm just dropping my 2 cents here: I haven't liked much of anything produced in the new canon, starting with and including star wars the clone wars (I know that it's bad to say that). While I actually enjoyed TFA quite a bit, seeing it 9 times in theaters alone, and Rogue One was astounding, the rest of the produced material has been less than stellar in my humble opinion, if not horrible, especially when looking at the overall story of Star Wars past episode 6 and the science, lore, etc. While TFA really was a carbon copy of ANH, I still found it generally enjoyable as ANH was good. I found TLJ to be pretty bad. I like calling it a really bad good movie because of what it does, from Admiral Holdo to flying Leia, Canto Bight, Bad jokes, etc. But I hate TLJ because of what it does to the overall story of the new canon, as well as it pretty much flipping the bird at the established stuff that we uber nerds love, and the stupid stuff with the star wars physics being changed and warped to fit the crappy story. I could complain about that but we all know what happened there.
I have the same opinion, if not a worse one of the TV shows, The Clone Wars to me was very meh, I really don't like the individualistic clones being controlled by mind control chips and the general numbers that don't make sense , i.e 2m clones being able to successfully fight 5qui battle droids, but whatever. I never liked Ashoka very much, or Grievous being a whimp, the peaceful mandalorians and the huge focus on them, the father, son, daughter, etc. Rebels takes my distaste of this stuff up like 10 notches, and it just gets so cringey, and it controls so much of the canon now, Thrawn, Maul, the Mandalorian fanboyism, Giant Wolves, etc. It's all being thrown in the trash by the writing team.
The new books are really bad too at explaining what happened after Endor until TFA, none of it really makes sense, and tends to be pretty unclear, has a lack of focus, and is just pretty bad in general. This extends to the story of Iden Versio in BF2, another horrible story (though I like the game itself). I could go on but I'd just be ranting more.
What I'm trying to get at is that the new story is really not as strong as the old canon was in most places, rogue one being my biggest exception. The new canon definitely has it's pro's but overall really sucks, and has trashed a lot of stuff that was good in the original canon, like Thrawn :(. I'm definitely seeing a downward trend in the quality of star wars stories, usually because of the direction of Kathleen Kennedy, the new authors, and my personal favorite, Dave Filoni. Rian Johnson's stuff wasn't too great imo either. I still enjoy a lot of the stuff, seeing A-Wings and TIE Fighters, Kylo Ren, Death Troopers, etc. but the overall arc of the new canon is just badly disorganized and weak. While it does pretty much only affect us at the moment, the distaste in star wars will grow, there aren't a ton of us nerd types here, definitely not like us, but there are a lot of strong star wars nerds that are unhappy with the current trend. Hopefully the quality drop can change, maybe removal of Kathleen Kennedy?? I don't know, I just want to see this stuff fixed.
Rant Over :)
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I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.
According to Hask they were evacuating the planet. They started with personnel then civilians which begs the question. Where did these people evacuated go? Vardos somehow still was loyal to the Empire but i am not entirely sure.
One example was when the rebellion began bombing Coursant and killing civilians. They also took out vengeance family members of Imperials in order to force Imperials to surrender.
What bothers me the most is that why Iden and Del were pardon for all the warcrimes they commited being th e elite memebers of the Empire, while low level officers were excuted? What is this bullshit?
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If the campaign was longer it would help to sooth Iden's transition that was first started in her book
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I suppose it comes down to intent. If someone does a military strike against a factory it's with the intention of putting the factory out of commission, worker deaths are not the desired outcome, they are a byproduct. Collateral as it were. In contrast with the executions, the goal is to instill terror by deliberately targeting and publicly killing the workers themselves, so the factory becomes the secondary objective there, it's about an object lesson with the deaths being the primary objective.
I missed the question, but this is largely my answer. I'd only add that there is also a significant difference not only in intent but also in execution. Bombing the factory kills the workers as an unfortunate byproduct of serving a military goal (reducing your enemy's capacity to wage war), but if you've already captured the factory then there is no longer a legitimate military purpose to be served by harming the former workers - your enemy's capacity for war will not be harmed by the act. The very ruthless might argue that dealing with prisoners diminishes your own capacity to wage war, and they aren't entirely wrong in that as you do have to devote resources to securing and maintaining captives, but pretty much every international treaty regarding rules of war has refused such reasoning as inhumane - and the strategic fallout of such massacres can make one's overall military situation worse, as knowing that they will not be treated well will reduce the willingness of enemy soldiers and civilians to surrender, while simultaneously harming one's situation politically by making it far more difficult to claim any moral high ground over one's foes. German soldiers in WWII were FAR more willing to surrender to UK or US troops than they were to Soviet ones, and with good reason.
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I think the legends story is way better than disneys "new" canon story and the BF II campaign wasnt that good story wise. It would be better if iden didnt switcht the sides.
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According to Hask they were evacuating the planet. They started with personnel then civilians which begs the question. Where did these people evacuated go? Vardos somehow still was loyal to the Empire but i am not entirely sure.
One example was when the rebellion began bombing Coursant and killing civilians. They also took out vengeance family members of Imperials in order to force Imperials to surrender.
What bothers me the most is that why Iden and Del were pardon for all the warcrimes they commited being th e elite memebers of the Empire, while low level officers were excuted? What is this bullshit?
The bullshit known as 'politics'
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This game really wasn't what anyone expected. They expected some awesome, content heavy, Star Wars FPS, but instead got a game where you need to buy DLC to have fun. Also, the story sucked. Long Story Short, the game kinda sucked.