Thrawn's Revenge
Ascendancy [SoaSE] => Ascendancy Discussion => Topic started by: DarthRevansRevenge on May 09, 2017, 04:05:35 PM
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so, the factions for Ascendancy stand thus:
1.1: Imperial Remnant, New Republic, Empire of the Hand, Pentastar Alignment
1.2: Hapes Consortium
1.3.... who?
now, for the reason i made this.
can the 6th faction be the Hutts?
this would be a faction of pirates, bounty hunters, mercenaries, and crime. this would give you a chance to bring in stuff like the Aggresser Destroyer, Providence Carrier, Kedalbe Battleship, R41, Clutch fighters, Hondo's pirate disk battleships, and other such units.
as of now, there is no hutt faction, and it would be different from the other factions currently in either game. as Corey has said before, while ICW goes Canonical(Legendonical?), Ascendancy is supposed to represent the different faction styles, not actual timeframe. Thus the Hutts would bring something new to the table and fill one of the empty slots
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I thought the 6th faction would be the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium, at least according to the Ascendancy Wiki. Although anything can happen by the time 1.3 comes out.
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the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium is the most likely choice.
Unless you throw in other ideas such as:
The Vong/Peace Brigade (GOD NO)
The Duskan League(it be kind of cool since they would have unique culture)
Zsinj's Empire(we should at least have Zsinj as a faction since they could have a more unique set of tech upgrades. I would also argue that Zsinj's Empire is a just like the PA a splinter Faction, Not a warlord state, even though he is called Warlord Zsinj)
A custom Imperial splinter faction with unique tech trees revolving around being independent of the Empire(Unlikely)
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Corey has said it won't be another imperial. i think he also said that the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium would remain how it is, it would require the same overhaul as Hapes, which they are doing, and EoTH, which they have done. the Hutt faction, by comparison, would just need models, not whole new designs, like for the Ssi-Ruuvi.
as for the Duskhan League, 99% of their stuff is Imperial, so that would have the same problem as the Ssi-Ruuvi, with Corey having to design and make a bunch of stuff for them they never used.
as for Vong/Peace brigade... let's leave that in the trash and Vong mods
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The PA was feasible because within the category of "Imperial" there were (barely) enough options in tech and abilities to make those two function differently. Now that you have the regimes in the regular IR tech tree, that's stretched even more. Sure, Zsinj could have or or two unique things, like trying to gimmick something with nightcloaks, but unless you have concrete examples of what it actually means to express other differences through unique tech, they basically end up as the same thing. Like, do we give them research that gives them 10% more culture repression than the IR/PA? Maybe 10% more damage but fewer of the same ship? Is that really enough, expressed basically through the same ships and abilities, to actually be a different faction? There's only so different you can make fleets of Star Destroyers within the same basic set of game mechanics, and there's other groups that aren't Imperial, and do have far more variance not just in ship roster but in what those factions were actually about or capable of. Especially when you have such strict memory limits and faction slot limitations. This is why there was the choice of Daala or Zsinj for the third Imperial regime- there's some things we can do that would have made him worthy of an Imperial regime tree, like nightcloaks if there were a good mechanic for them, respawning SSD hero, and faster research, but two of those are just fine through Daala and not really something we need in another place as well.
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you haven't answered my initial question
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Well I wouldn't mind the Hutts as a faction, but it kinda feels wrong having them ahead of other more military-based factions, since the Hutt Cartel were more of an Underworld organization, and mostly applied other methods rather than pure military intervention. They had mercs and pirates fighting for their money, of course, but still it wasn't much of a force, and Hutts would rather bribe someone then engage them in open warfare, and they usually didn't openly oppose strong factions such as the various Imperial splinter groups or the New Republic. Just from a lore point of view, the Hutt Cartel doesn't feel like the right choice, but that's only my opinion. Also, having them use the Kedalbe and the Aggressor would feel to much like the base game Zann Consortium, imo. But I'm up for whatever Corey decides to do, I'm sure it'll be great either way, I have complete trust in him and the TR team.
P.S.: An Underworld group fighting large-scale open wars against the Empire and the Rebel Alliance was my problem with the base FoC, too, btw. It just didn't really make sence, even though all of the corruption mechanics were interesting, and really fit the faction well lorewise, but it only made the Consortium very OP overall.
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you haven't answered my initial question
We've given hints in the past (to the point of basically giving it away), and people can speculate all they want, but you're not going to get an answer from me in here. I may clarify our positions on some stuff, but when we announce a faction, it'll be in news posts.
as Corey has said before, while ICW goes Canonical(Legendonical?), Ascendancy is supposed to represent the different faction styles, not actual timeframe.
Not quite. It's more that the timeline is a bit less meaningful, since in ICW we're more recreating specific scenarios, but in Ascendancy we're sort of grabbing from within that timeline and progression is more tech than story. So, for example, if the Vong were hypothetically an Ascendancy faction or random event or something, you could end up with the PA fighting the Vong because of how Sins works, which wouldn't be a very likely scenario for us to cover in ICW.
Well I wouldn't mind the Hutts as a faction, but it kinda feels wrong having them ahead of other more military-based factions, since the Hutt Cartel were more of an Underworld organization, and mostly applied other methods rather than pure military intervention. They had mercs and pirates fighting for their money, of course, but still it wasn't much of a force, and Hutts would rather bribe someone then engage them in open warfare, and they usually didn't openly oppose strong factions such as the various Imperial splinter groups or the New Republic. Just from a lore point of view, the Hutt Cartel doesn't feel like the right choice, but that's only my opinion. Also, having them use the Kedalbe and the Aggressor would feel to much like the base game Zann Consortium, imo. But I'm up for whatever Corey decides to do, I'm sure it'll be great either way, I have complete trust in him and the TR team.
This was actually a bit more true a few years ago than it is now. The Legends treatment of the Hutts has evolved a little, from my understanding. It used to be a lot more what you're talking about, but since they joined the Confederacy in Legacy of the Force, they've been presented as having a bit more autonomy, and ability to field a fleet if not always the desire. The Kajidic system did mean they focused far more on economics than warfare, but considering two of the three named ship classes they contributed to the Confederacy (being the Chelandion and the Tarrada, with the third being the Batil) were used in the Hutt-Xim war 25,000 years prior, they seemed to have some understanding that they may need that kind of military presence again. The Vong War basically showed them they couldn't rely on mercenaries in the face of a full-blown invasion. Considering the Republic's crusades against them even after the Kajidic system rejected war, it wouldn't surprise me if they had an emergency reserve fleet the whole time, but that's just my interpretation.
P.S.: An Underworld group fighting large-scale open wars against the Empire and the Rebel Alliance was my problem with the base FoC, too, btw. It just didn't really make sence, even though all of the corruption mechanics were interesting, and really fit the faction well lorewise, but it only made the Consortium very OP overall.
Used to bother me, too, but I'm actually fine with it now. For the campaign, which is the only events that are to be taken as part of the actual story, you weren't really taking over many planets (and to the extent that you did, it was pretty clearly emphasized that "controlling" a planet for them as pretty lose), the emphasis was on the piracy aspects, and the planets where they had significant presence were backwater worlds with leftover military capabilities but not places the Empire would have been particularly concentrated in power.
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This was actually a bit more true a few years ago than it is now. The Legends treatment of the Hutts has evolved a little, from my understanding. It used to be a lot more what you're talking about, but since they joined the Confederacy in Legacy of the Force, they've been presented as having a bit more autonomy, and ability to field a fleet if not always the desire. The Kajidic system did mean they focused far more on economics than warfare, but considering two of the three named ship classes they contributed to the Confederacy (being the Chelandion and the Tarrada, with the third being the Batil) were used in the Hutt-Xim war 25,000 years prior, they seemed to have some understanding that they may need that kind of military presence again. The Vong War basically showed them they couldn't rely on mercenaries in the face of a full-blown invasion. Considering the Republic's crusades against them even after the Kajidic system rejected war, it wouldn't surprise me if they had an emergency reserve fleet the whole time, but that's just my interpretation.
Used to bother me, too, but I'm actually fine with it now. For the campaign, which is the only events that are to be taken as part of the actual story, you weren't really taking over many planets (and to the extent that you did, it was pretty clearly emphasized that "controlling" a planet for them as pretty lose), the emphasis was on the piracy aspects, and the planets where they had significant presence were backwater worlds with leftover military capabilities but not places the Empire would have been particularly concentrated in power.
Yes, of course the Hutts weren't always only relying on their money and various scumbag methods to achieve their goals, I meant mostly in the timeframe of the TR mods. It was a completely different story in the old Republic days. As for Legacy of the Force and stuff, I regret to say I'm not really up to date with most of it ;D But I'm not opposed to the concept of them having a strong military presense, and even with all of my reservations I still played the hell out of FoC back in the day, and a lot of the time as the ZC. Again, whatever you decide to do, you have my vote in advance. Even though I think I'm pretty sure who the 6th Ascendancy faction will be :)
P.S.: Writing about Kedalbe and Aggressor earlier in response to DarthRevansRevenge I mixed up ICW and Ascendancy, however my point still stands, it'll be like the Ascendancy version of FoC's ZC then.
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I'm starting to recall the earlier discussions on this topic now, and yeah, I don't think it's the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium after all, but maybe another aggressive extra-galactic faction with a triple name. Anyway, we'll see.
i think he also said that the Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium would remain how it is
You're absolutely right. I forgot that Corey already addressed that, and I even forgot that the SR were already in 1.0. I need to get some sleep.
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Nah, the Ssi-Ruuvi will get a full faction status. I will see it done by myself if need be.
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I was going to post a list of units tech and heroes to challenge Corey on the claim Zsinj has little tech.
But it got deleted by my brother(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)
but I will make a short summary.
Heroes
Zsinj
Apwar Trigit
Zuel Darillan
Razor's kiss(unlock from tech that allows you to steal one)
Special units:
Neutron star
tie raptors
Executor
allegiance
custom CR90s the ones with tractor beams
Nebulous
quasars
ISD or ISD ll
VSD l and VSD ll
Strike crusiers
Gozanti crusisers(my bro likes those)
Lukerhaulks(We might want to remove those from the PA then and replace them with another one)
Tech( you would decide how they work)
CSA navy
night cloaks
rancor base
CSA
Raptors
His business influence
His recruitment of intelligence officers
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip
his special projects
his theft of razor's kiss
Their maybe more but I would love to have a conversation with Corey over discord about this and why it would work
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I was going to post a list of units tech and heroes to challenge Corey on the claim Zsinj has little tech.
But it got deleted by my brother(NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO)
but I will make a short summary.
Heroes
Zsinj
Apwar Trigit
Zuel Darillan
Special units:
Neutron star
tie raptors
Executor
allegiance
custom CR90s the ones with tractor beams
Tech( you would decide how they work
CSA navy
night cloaks
rancor base
CSA
Raptors
His business influence
His recruitment of intelligence officers
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip
Their maybe more but I would love to have a conversation with Corey over discord about this and why it would work
No offense but all the special units you suggest don't really change game-play up too much. The IR has the Executor and the allegiance, the Neutron Star would seem out of place. Tie Raptors are pretty much a reskinned TIE Defender and would have no uniqueness. If Zsinj was a faction it would just be an awkward combination of both IR and PA which wouldn't be fun at all.
Same thing with the Tech Tree, if you want a navy similar to the CSA that's the PentaStar
Night Cloaks could theoretically work as an in game system but there's already a superweapon faction, so there's no need for a second one.
Rancor base is just a Naval command station with a dry dock
CSA, same thing as Pentastar,
Raptors maybe faster siege damage but that's still IR
Business influence that's still Pentastar,
Intel officers, IR
Locking down sectors IR
The point of having different factions is have a big difference between each faction, even the PA and IR have a huge difference in terms of game play and strategy and their both Imps. Adding Zsinj as a different faction would just be boring.
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No offense but all the special units you suggest don't really change game-play up too much. The IR has the Executor and the allegiance, the Neutron Star would seem out of place. Tie Raptors are pretty much a reskinned TIE Defender and would have no uniqueness. If Zsinj was a faction it would just be an awkward combination of both IR and PA which wouldn't be fun at all.
Same thing with the Tech Tree, if you want a navy similar to the CSA that's the PentaStar
Night Cloaks could theoretically work as an in game system but there's already a superweapon faction, so there's no need for a second one.
Rancor base is just a Naval command station with a dry dock
CSA, same thing as Pentastar,
Raptors maybe faster siege damage but that's still IR
Business influence that's still Pentastar,
Intel officers, IR
Locking down sectors IR
The point of having different factions is have a big difference between each faction, even the PA and IR have a huge difference in terms of game play and strategy and their both Imps. Adding Zsinj as a different faction would just be boring.
as I said I had a longer version explaining this more for you. I just lost it after my brother deleted it.
Mr. Puerto how about on Saturday we talk on discord and see if we could make a Zsinj faction work?
I already have a few unique techs
Raptors: Raptors are the Elite forces of Zsinj capable of helping drastically spread his influence. For Example: if a NR fleet takes a planet on my border the influence of my faction grows because my citizens fear the EVIL NR will hostilely take me over. This could also allow for many neutral systems to join solely because they fear takeover by the NR
(this one has a bad name) Land Grabs: Zisnj used alias to buy up land decreasing population but rather giving more industrial slots on your planets even after you max out the logistics capacity.
(this one you need to read the Zsinj book) Underworld: Zsinj's allies are all over the underworld finding intel. (this allows Zsinj to either A: locate a artifact, or B locate planets controlled by other factions. it would only detect one planet and it will not be their capitol)
Moffs approval: Zsinj's actions seem to impress the moffs who still considered him on their side.(the faction negotiates better with the IR but decreases negotiation with PA)
tie droids(Hear me out) some of the false 181st tie fighters were droids that would blow up. so Zsinj deploys them from his ship and they have the ability ti Kamikaze into ships damaging them.
Second Death: convert razor's kiss into a heavily armor target with no weapons(allows for a fleet to be distracted like the bulwark ability but bigger)
Hire out:
Ships cost less but fleet up keep goes up do to Zsinj recruiting rogue imperials like Trigit and needing more repairs and crew.
That secret plan trigit and Zsinj had in wraith squadron(research for Mr. Puerto)
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personally, seeing as there is only one slot left, I would really prefer to have a non imperial faction rather than zinji.
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Again Zsinj just seems too similar to the IR and PA. Having more uniqueness would fit the mod better than shoehorning in Zsinj and really stretching the tech tree to make it seem "unique" there's already two factions with triangle ships no need for a third
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Units alone don't tend to change up gameplay, especially when the military doctrines are the same between factions and again, the core of those factions' rosters would be the same (two of the ships you've listed there already exist in the Remnant)- what is it those units actually do that makes them different? TIE Raptors may look different, but they're just a couple health and damage adjustments off from being a Scimitar, or an A-Wing. You're not really gonna justify a faction that way. And it has to be that way, because it still has to be an Imperial faction. If you throw in too much other stuff to differentiate them, it ceases to be a good representation of Zsinj or the Empire, and then what's the point anymore? When you think of "iconic" Zsinj stuff, everything except the Raptors is either already in the Remnant, PA, or New Republic.
And for the rest of the tech suggestions, they're different presentations (different text and an icon) to what ultimately becomes the same substance, and even the presentation doesn't end up being substantially different. What I'm asking you isn't a list of things to rename Imperial tech to, it's what the actual substance of that would be. What, as a player, would you actually be doing differently playing Zsinj rather than the Empire or the PA?
Locking down his sector to keep a tight grip
What difference does a faction calling their focus on culture suppression actually have whether we call it Inquestors for the PA, or something else for the Remnant and Zsinj? The end result is still just a faction full of triangles focusing less on expansion through culture and more on shutting that culture down, and we already have two of them. Nightcloaks at least provide a different expression of that focus, in that you build it as a way to shut down culture getting to or past a planet, but you also kill off your population there. That's an actual difference, but again, not enough to justify a whole faction off of.
His business influence
The New Republic and the Pentastar Alignment are already heavily economy-focused, with the Pa having a big emphasis on their business or corporate aspects specifically.
rancor base
Having a name for his base doesn't really tell us anything about him. Doesn't influence playstyle. It's, at best, a name for an as-yet unspecified tech.
Raptors: Raptors are the Elite forces of Zsinj capable of helping drastically spread his influence. For Example: if a NR fleet takes a planet on my border the influence of my faction grows because my citizens fear the EVIL NR will hostilely take me over. This could also allow for many neutral systems to join solely because they fear takeover by the NR
Can't be a thing in Sins. But really, every faction is always going to border on other factions. What this does is make a faction with really strong cultural suppression also become really strong at spreading their culture, specifically against a faction where that's supposed to be their basis in this example.
(this one has a bad name) Land Grabs: Zisnj used alias to buy up land decreasing population but rather giving more industrial slots on your planets even after you max out the logistics capacity.
All factions have logistic structure increases, but if you were to give Zsinj more, what that really does is make him stronger economically and culturally, which just reinforces the economic power of the faction (which ultimately means their individual trade ports have to be weaker, since they shouldn't out-trade the NR and PA) and the power of their broadcast centers has to be reduced, since they shouldn't be more repressive than Palpatine's Dark Empire or be able to spread more easily than the New Republic.
(this one you need to read the Zsinj book) Underworld: Zsinj's allies are all over the underworld finding intel. (this allows Zsinj to either A: locate a artifact, or B locate planets controlled by other factions. it would only detect one planet and it will not be their capitol)
Artifacts (holocrons) are placed by the game automatically at the start, and the only way to find them is to use that upgrade on the planet. You can't add a mechanic for the game to automatically tell you beyond the ones that already exist, which it already does in a few places. the other doesn't sound too dissimilar from the Imperial probe droids, or other spy abilities that already exist (and don't really differentiate how those factions play, for those that have them).
Moffs approval: Zsinj's actions seem to impress the moffs who still considered him on their side.(the faction negotiates better with the IR but decreases negotiation with PA)
You can set baseline relations with other factions, and then the modifiers through research are Self and Other- you can't specify a tech to increase with one and decrease another.
I again maintain that while Zsinj has enough to make a different branch of the Remnant, it's not enough to justify a faction slot. Look at it this way. Ignore all the minutiae of specific techs, ignore ship x vs ship y. You can generally boil a faction's focus down to a few sentences talking about their playstyle.
Empire of the Hand: Fast, fragile ships good for hit and runs. Strong fortifications. Focus on individual ship quality. Somewhat isolated, so weaker trade and economy overall, focus on own resource extraction. Culturally neutral. Benefits little from high-population worlds, a lot from resource rich worlds.
Imperial Remnant: Economy strength comes from exploitation of population, less trade focused. Quantity over quality (ship-focused). Fleets of weaker ships centered around a focal point, usually Executor. Quick ship production. Strong culture oppression/suppression esp. with strong military presence, weak spreading. Benefits most from high population worlds. Capable of strong fortifications. Low upkeep costs
WITH PALPATINE: Scorched earth approach, superweapon focused.
Pentastar Alignment: High trade income, lower taxation income. Weaker resource extraction. Quick ship production, quantity over quality (fighter focused). Carrier-swarm approach, lacks fleet focal point that Remnant has. Culturally oppressive. Strong supply lines, but weaker fortifications.
New Republic: Durable ships, effective but more limited fighters. Quality over quantity, smallest fleets. Diplomacy focused, strongest when fighting in own culture. Very good at spreading culture, establishing trade.
Hapes Consortium: Economically strong, concentrated on capital planet. Middle ground of quantity vs quality for ships leaning towards quantity, stronger output but weaker defenses but combat effectiveness is based primarily on abilities, initial stages of battle. Easy to make diplomatic ties with other factions. Middle ground culturally.
And, for some other examples of what I mean, using things brought up in the thread:
Hutt Cartels: Weak early game ships rely on militia/pirate friendliness. Very strong economy through both trade and taxes, weak resource output. Ship strength primarily comes through upgrades on individual ships, low initial prices but high upkeep for mercenary crews.
Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium: Weak economy, overall. Quantity over quality to the extreme, both ships and fighters. Entechment means benefits from successful engagements being built upon, raiding before engaging. Automatic resupply, upkeep draws energy from planets via entechment instead of credits. Difficult to spread culture, but fighting within culture provides strong bonuses.
Yuuzhan Vong Empire: Weak economy, strong resource output. Basically cannot be penetrated culturally, cannot take over through culture. Very strong individual ships. Lack shields, high regeneration. Dovin Basals mean high chance for enemy weapons to do no damage at all, must be concentrated.
This is basically what I mean. If you were to lay out Zsinj, sure, we could swap out a handful of ships for some more obscure Imperial designs (though there still has to be a similar core, because he's still gotta be Imperial). Yes, there's some specific abilities which could be fairly unique (mostly just nightcloaks, everything else is a variation on an ability that exists elsewhere, but with different stats). Also, being research focused isn't really saying how they wanna play-you can rank these factions by how much they wanna research as well, and Daala and the EotH give some reseach bonuses, but research is always in service of some other thing, which then itself goes into one of the above qualities. Does it increase the quanitity of ships like the PA/IR focus on? Does it bring up the quality like for the NR? Does it introduce or impact a mechanic unique to that faction, which significantly changes the way that faction is played as or against, like Entechment or Dovin Basals?
Sometimes having a unique aesthetic can be a bonus acting for a faction that's less unique otherwise, but here Zsinj still loses out- he's an Imperial with some Rebel stuff.
So, what would a theoretical Zsinj roster look like, anyways?
Titan - Executor (already on Remnant)
Capital - Lucrehulk (through CSA). Won't be on the PA anymore, but brings him in the fighter swarm direction, which is PA territory.
Capital - ISDI (already on Remnant)
Capital - ISDII (already on Remnant)
Capital - Allegiance (already on Remnant)
Capital - ?
Cruiser - VSDI (VSDs were a big part of the CSA, so if we're basing some tech off of that, he should get VSDs)
Cruiser - VSDII (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Strike Cruiser (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Dreadnaught (already on Remnant)
Cruiser - Recusant (from CSA)
Frigate - Mu (basic scout)
Frigate - Lambda (basic lander)
Frigate - CR90/Lancer (already on New Rep/Remnant)
Frigate - Nebulon-B (already on Remnant)
Frigate - Carrack (already on Remnant)
Frigate - Neutron Star
Really, the only unique units he can get would be through the CSA connection.
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Also in the fighter department we might be able to change the Defender to the Raptors, but there is nothing to replace the Scimitarts in the supperiority bomber department, which would not fit Zsinj either anyway. Other than that only TIE fighters, bombers and interceptors which are IR/PA once again.
No matter how we see it Zsinj is a no-good in terms of new factions. And I am not even part of the Ascendancy team, so don't treat this as a mod team member stuff, just another player's oppinion.
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so, if it were possible to squeeze a fourth tech out of the IR, i would do it for zsinj, but not as a new faction.
Same with the duskhan league, if we look at that, here is what we would find
Titan: Executor(Remnant)
Capital: Impstar I(Remnant)
Capital: Impstar II(Remnant)
Capital: Aramadia(design needed, super heavy capital)
Capital:
Capital:
Frigate: Victory(Remnant)
Frigate:
Frigate:
Frigate:
Frigate:
Corvette: Thrust Ship
and this is just what i can think of off the top of my head. the Duskhan league is a bad choice as well. 99% of their stuff is imperial or rebel, and the playstyle would be close to imperial, but xenophobic
the Vong would not be in their own era, and thus would likely overpower everyone and everything, which would mean they are the only faction anyone plays.
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The Vong would not be in their own era, and thus would likely overpower everyone and everything, which would mean they are the only faction anyone plays.
Absolutely not true. Disregarding at the moment the fact that Corey and Co. will ensure balance is always maintained when the Vong are added, the ships used in the fight against the Vong were pretty much the same ships we see in the mod: New Class, ISDs, etc.
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I agree about the Yevetha and the Vong.
I love the DL, but there is no place for them in the Sins mod. They are too lacking in original content. Though what DarthRevansRevenge said is quite a bit of understatement considering their current status.
Once we have enough of the lines written, we'll be doing a post requesting voice actor submissions, and the Duskhan League has been expanded in several ways.
#KucsidaveBeenBusy...
I've made a pretty big expansion to that faction in many regards, but yeah. It is still basically an imperial subfaction
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okay fair enough but I argue that it would allow ships like torpedo spheres for Zsinj, and custom CR90s not the regular ones.
But the other reason for why I argue this is ascendancy focus's on factions who are huge of a threat to the galaxy
Other options though:
Ssi-Ruuvi Imperium(My favorite choice)
Hutt Cartels
I would also argue Corey that if you want we could chat over discord and I could make a Zsinj roster, playstyle and tech to make them different.
Zsinj's Empire: Strong relationships with other factions but not PA. The faction's doctrine is more about battling on worlds where the enemy is prepared defense. Zsinj's Empire focus on consolidating its power than seizing the moment to strike at his enemies. He was known to be very heavily back by warlords like Lion Banjeer and terrniald Screed. He may not have a huge population but that is due to him exterminating rebels in his sector. Benefits less form culture, and more on research, industrialization, and Tighter controller. While he lacks major Imperial ships he makes up for it with a strong economy. The Titan foundry wont be allow for them however they get Zsinj's Iron Fist and Razor's kiss which can be converted into Second death as a bulwark like ability on steroids.
I know Corey Doesn't give a shit about my opinion but I don't care :)
BTW if you do choose the hutt faction can they get ugly squadrons? Like these?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jfat9VhoOI&list=PL1E873sPZ0PNdknUVmzgyUEJBTby4i2nA
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I agree about the Yevetha and the Vong.
I love the DL, but there is no place for them in the Sins mod. They are too lacking in original content. Though what DarthRevansRevenge said is quite a bit of understatement considering their current status.#KucsidaveBeenBusy...
I've made a pretty big expansion to that faction in many regards, but yeah. It is still basically an imperial subfaction
my bad, i didn't see that
as for the DL, except for fighters and thrustships, their stuff is all IR/NR tech. while fine in ICW, that is not helpful in ascendancy. anyway, the 1 main difference i see is the the DL would just exterminate life other than their own on every planet they conquer, so that could be seen as a downside
as for Thrawn's comment, i started this to ask for the Hutt Cartels in the first place, so whatever
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okay fair enough but I argue that it would allow ships like torpedo spheres for Zsinj, and custom CR90s not the regular ones.
Both units that already exist for another faction. The modified CR90 would really just give it a tractor beam ability, which isn't super useful for a ship of that size in the first place in Sins.
Strong relationships with other factions but not PA
I don't think there's any basis on which to say Zsinj is a diplomatically focused faction. Hell, he made everyone hate him so much the Empire and New Republci were willing to cooperate against him. He was public enemy #1. Kaine hated him, Teradoc hated him, the Empire and New Republic actively destroyed him. Screed allied with him, but they were rivals, and Zsinj had him executed.
Zsinj's Empire focus on consolidating its power than seizing the moment to strike at his enemies.
What does this actually translate to in-game? More tactical slots? Lower ship numbers?
Benefits less form culture, [...] industrialization, and Tighter controller.
This is already exactly what the Remnant and PA do. They increase cultural suppression and allegiance, as opposed to spreading it.
and more on research
Again, research is only a trait in that something comes from that research.
He may not have a huge population but that is due to him exterminating rebels in his sector. [...] While he lacks major Imperial ships he makes up for it with a strong economy.
So, strong economy and industrialization from a smaller tax base would mean he's using a lot of trade ports for credit income, the Imperial take on which is already the Pentastar Alignment, or he'd be copying the EotH's primary industry techs and getting credits directly from resource extractors.
While he lacks major Imperial ships [...] The Titan foundry wont be allow for them however they get Zsinj's Iron Fist and Razor's kiss which can be converted into Second death as a bulwark like ability on steroids.
By lacking major Imperial ships, you mean access to a regular buildable titan? So again, militarily, he relies on spamming large amounts of Imperial ships, which sounds pretty much the same as the other Imperial factions. Also, considering the amount of time and resource he put into wanting more super ships, he doesn't seem like the kind of faction that shouldn't get a regular one.
I know Corey Doesn't give a shit about my opinion but I don't care :)
It's not that we don't care about people's opinions, it's that ideas are put in based on their merit, and Zsinj doesn't really offer any merit as a playable faction. Honestly, a lot of people asking for the Warlord stuff just comes down to them wanting to see the name "Warlord Zsinj" ingame- that's all it really means. You can already see that on Dathomir where you find Iron Fist, or playing against an Imperial AI faction, Warlord Zsinj is one of the random names for it. The PA and IR already encompass three basic takes on the Empire, and making a fourth is still gonna be within that fairly small and already crowded range, which is why I say he is, at best, a fourth option for a regime in a future version if we can physically fit him into that tree. The more you have to try to differentiate him, the more it's clear that the thing people find attractive for him as an option is simply the guy itself, not the opportunities he actually offers for gameplay. He's too similar to the Imperials, because he is Imperial. If you change that enough to make a new faction, his roster and playstyle cease to be Imperial. We can't build a whole faction around a nightcloak.
So far, using what you've suggested and removing the presentation aspects, just boiling it down to playstyle (and flipping the diplomatic thing, because again, making him a great diplomatic faction doesn't really make much sense considering everyone hated him and wanted him dead).
We have:
1. Poor diplomacy (Remnant is already this, under Palpatine is this in spades)
2. Culture is about repression and allegiance increases, not spreading (exactly like the Remnant and PA)
3. Economy very strong, high reliance on building trade ports (again, PA)
4. Ships are quantity vs quality, need to build up a large force before attacking (again, same as Remnant and PA- they're even the same ships)
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I mean if you want to make Zsinj a faction you are absolutely free to do it on your own and release it as a submod. However, with every single idea you've proposed there's nothing unique that makes Zsinj different. Expect for the names and descriptions all the technologies and even the play-style is the same has the IR and PA. Unlike ICW there's almost no point of making a faction that's similar to an other faction. The only reason why the PA works is because the game-play of PA is so dramatically different than the IR it makes it super enjoyable to play as them.
Torpedo spheres weren't even associated with Zsinj's empire, so again it wouldn't make any sense to have it.
Also in the case of Razor kiss's case, the ability to turn it into a hulk of armor is just useless. Why in the world would I want to use ability that turns off the weapons of one of the most powerful ships in the game? To allow my fleet to escape? That would be a horrible idea, because one you're just allowing Titan to die off. Secondly you won't being doing any damage to the enemy fleet while you escape. If the situation is really that bad were you need to kill off your own titan, you really need to cut down that enemy fleet a couple notches.
And well Corey already posted a better version of what I said before I could put this out so you might as well read that
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its cool Corey and I chatted. And he won me over these are the next factions ;)
these are the top three most likely choices for the next faction:
Corporate Sector Authority, Dark Nest, Peace Brigade
These are clearly the best choices everyone.
:)
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its cool Corey and I chatted. And he won me over these are the next factions ;)
these are the top three most likely choices for the next faction:
Corporate Sector Authority, Dark Nest, Peace Brigade
These are clearly the best choices everyone.
:)
I'm rather skeptical 8=)
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;0
I'm rather skeptical 8=)
on top of that Corey is making a aggressor for the EOTH since one was mention by Thrawn in some random kid book for third graders that contdicts everything
The CSA will also get the dark saber and nuclear weapons
;)
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are you smoking something? or have i just been missing the discord?
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are you smoking something? or have i just been missing the discord?
A little bit of A and a little bit of B
BTW we will also make a faction that is a set of Disney units. including Dumbo Fighters, Goofy Class dreadnaught, Aladdin class Star destoryers, Miky mouse( a Super weapon that fires major lasers that blow up ten planets
;)
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Don't forget Minnie Mouse, the smaller of the two super weapons.
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Wow, this thread got off the rails quickly. :D
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My gosh, Thrawn. you really know how to destroy a serious conversation
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My gosh, Thrawn. you really know how to destroy a serious conversation
Well I am a tactician:)
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I've known for awhile that it has already been decided what the next faction will be. Unfortunately, I either was completely oblivious too, or simply lacked the appropriate star wars knowledge to understand Corey's hints at what it will be. Thus I have no idea.
I do very much look forward to the team's creativity with the creation of the hapans. I have no doubt that if they try hard enough, they can turn any faction that has some information about it, into a viable and fun option.
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the Vong would not be in their own era, and thus would likely overpower everyone and everything, which would mean they are the only faction anyone plays.
Fortunately, few Vong ships have technical information available, so much like with the EotH the team would be able to use plenty of artistic license to make the Vong not unkillable. At any rate, it wasn't really newer, stronger ships that defeated the Vong, but new tactics: scatter-fire to confuse dovin basals and tire them out, concentrating fire from multiple angles so they couldn't cover all incoming shots, expanding inertial dampeners so the dovin basals couldn't easily strip shields, and so on. There are limits to how well these kinds of tactics can be represented in-game, but lore always has to be compromised to some degree for the sake of gameplay functioning.
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Judging from this image: http://www.moddb.com/mods/star-wars-ascendancy/images/updated-faction-select-screen#imagebox, there are two factions left after Hapes.
I am almost certain the Yuzhang-Vong are one of them due to the unique gameplay they could bring (There also exists some files for them in the folders of the mod); as for the other I hope it is the Ssi-ruuvi Imperium so the remaining two factions would be polar opposites of each other with the Vong being focused on individual very powerful units and the Imperium on massive hordes. Plus both would be completely alien factions which would be refreshing.
If the Hutts were implemented I think they would work best through Sin's vanilla mechanic where you bid on pirates so they attack you enemies as that would model them well in my opinion.
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The Vong is obviously a good choice for a different faction. That being said that would need to introduce new mechanics to be interesting to play and to look "realist" by the lore's standard, but I'm confident in the team for that. Some also may be bothered to have the Vong fighting PA or Palpy's superweapons but there's always hankward combats in such games/mods.
But from what I've read, I always tought that the next two factions (after the first four) would be Hapes and the Ssi-Ruks, so my hopes for the last slot are focused on the Vong Empire.