Thrawn's Revenge
Off Topic => Star Wars Discussion => Topic started by: Meyer on October 19, 2007, 08:02:10 AM
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Empire I speak of is the Empire that never faced rebel alliance. so without civil war, what would have happened in Yuuzhan Vong War?
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Aside the fact that if the Empire couldnt hold down an "insignificant rebellion", they have zero chance against a major opponent :P
The amount of destruction and loss would be about the same i think.
The Empire would have been just as surprised by the invasion as the NR was (only the Emperor and a select few knew of the impending invasion), and would have been thrown into equal disarray.
The available technology would have been about the same, wholly unsuited against the Vong - In fact their starfighters would be even worse off since they wouldnt have the slight protection of shields.
While the Imperial force would have been much stronger than the NR one, the absence of the Jedi to distract the Vong would make the invasion campaign considerably more concentrated and powerful.
The Imperial's love of superweapons would lead them to design and build a vongkiller of some description, which would presumably have some sort of major flaw for the Vong to exploit (maybe forgetting that Vong ships have Dovin Basals that create those micro black-holes)..
The only possible redeeming factor would be Thrawn, but only being one commander, and the well known anti-alien bias of the Empire, i feel his ability to influence the situation would be severely restricted.
This leaves with me a difficulty for voting in the poll. If by defeat the Vong you mean more successfully than the NR did (removing them as a threat counts as defeating) then i choose no, but if you just mean defeat them, id say yes.
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but empire would have had death star to use against YV. and no dovin basal can take that much energy. and more than 25 000 ISDs to use. and you must also remember that rebellion won through guergilla tactics. YV used same sort of tactics as empire: superior numbers and firepower. And Empire wouldn't have had any chaos and delays to act. there would be nobody to argue about that if they are a threat or not as in NR. Emperor would have been able to send his fleets to meet YV as soon as he got the info. so I have to say that Empire would have most likely done much better than NR and that they would have been able to defeat YV.
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The Death Star that could only hit things the size of a planet and could only fire once every 24hrs, yes - such a useful tool..
I dispute the 25000 ISD figure.
The Vong were far more ruthless than the Empire, and their superior numbers and firepower were far in excess of what the Empire could field.
There would have been plenty of chaos and disruption, the first sightings would get fed back through intelligence channels, and slowly filter up the command chains, everyone would start panicking. Sure, there would be no senate to debate the issue, but there was still plenty of bureaucracy to complicate and delay matters.
You have to remember that the vast majority of Imperial forces were deployed to keep the peace (even without the Rebel Alliance stirring things up), if they were withdrawn to confront the Vong, internal security would collapse, especially if information about this threat leaked out. Therefore only a fraction of Palpatine's forces could safely be mobilised against the Vong.
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I think people would be more happy under emperors rule than YV enslavement. And Yuuzhan Vong had many large ships, including worldships. and emperor might have built more and improved death stars, like the mkII. And why do you dispute the 25000 ISD figure? It's mentioned in many book.
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Maybe the citizens would be happier under the Empire than the Vong, but in times of galactic unrest (and a panicky, confused society is such) there are many people who attempt to profit from it, from the small fringe groups like pirates, up to planets or systems wanting to use the unrest to mask actions they take against their "enemies" (such as happened during the Caamas Crisis).
Yes, the Vong did have large ships, but only the Worldships would be large enough to be target able by the first Death Star. And the Empire only designed/built the second Death Star because the first one was spectacularly obliterated, so it is unlikely that they would have created more in this theoretical timeline (where there was no Rebel Alliance). And once the conflict started, there would not be enough resources or time to build another DS.
Yes, the 25000 figure is mentioned in many books, but i think it is misrepresented. Personally i think it is meant to be 25000 ships of all classes (not just ISDs). Especially when you consider that each ImpI took ~46000 crewers, and a ImpII took ~37000 (lets say 40500 for an average) - that would be ~1012500000 humans, not including any of the other ship classes (of which there would presumably more ships), supporting services, supply ships, etc. And in EpVI, Palpatine says X [proportion] (half?) of his starfleet is behind Endor waiting for the Rebel fleet - and there was nowhere near 12500 ISDs there.
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didn't both ISD classes have a crew of 37000?
And the Galaxy is large and there is cloning technology. And you think emperor would only build one succesful DS?
But also that number could mean eventually built, including those destroyed in war.
But what about if rebellion was destroyed in Endor. how about then?
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other than crew and armament, what was the difference between mk1 and 2?
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didn't both ISD classes have a crew of 37000?
Not according to Wookieepedia, the ISDII had a smaller crew complement (presumably due to system improvements).
And the Galaxy is large and there is cloning technology. And you think emperor would only build one succesful DS?
I think in another thread we discussed whether cloning was continued post clone war, and largely decided that only half of Imperial personnel were clones by the time of Yavin. The Death Stars were enormously expensive in time, resources and personnel, and were designed primarily as a deterrent. I think that if the first DS hadnt been destroyed at Yavin, the Emperor would not have ordered the design/construction of the second DS.
But also that number could mean eventually built, including those destroyed in war.
Ahh, but if it does mean that, then there wouldnt be 25000 available to combat the Vong..
But what about if rebellion was destroyed in Endor. how about then?
You said in the first post assuming no Rebel Alliance or civil war.
other than crew and armament, what was the difference between mk1 and 2?
I dont know, look it up on Wookieepedia maybe?
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Right,
The Imperial Star Destroyer MK2 had significant differences to the MK1 and these Differences allowed for Less crew, Some had multiple jobs however, so if you got rid of these multi jobs then the numbers would be very similar.
No, the Emporor would not have designed a second Death Star if the first had not been destroyed, But, knowing the Empire, there is a high chance that he would have still designed the Eclipse, or some other powerful Superweapon.
The Empire constructed many Star Destroyers, and i am sure there would have been a Huge amound. Even if they were not at war then they would still have built large quantites just to instil fear, quite possibly the number would exceed 25000.
My personal opinion to the main topic question would be that the Empire would be able to sucseffuly repel the Vong. My reasons are;
The Empire was well organised, the New republic was not. The new republic was destroying itself with political problems and there was a sort of war going on within the NR itself. The imperials would 'not descend to this level' as they would say. They would not have succumbed to this and would be Much more organised, anyone going against the reigem would have been excecuted.
They would have immence firepower, and even though their fighters would be at a disadvantage against Coralskippers, they would have used Imperial knoledge to construct New fighters to combat this new threat. In fact, they would probably have used X-Wings as they were the origional people who the fighters were designed for. There were also some Imperial fighters that were equipped with shields.
I will save my other opinions for later ;)
DV
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No, the Emporor would not have designed a second Death Star if the first had not been destroyed, But, knowing the Empire, there is a high chance that he would have still designed the Eclipse, or some other powerful Superweapon.
Quite possibly, but they would have been designed to counter "conventional" enemy forces, whereas the Vong ships were completely different. This would limit the effectiveness of any such superweapon (although i admit that a superlaser is going to do pretty much the same thing no matter what it goes through).
The Empire was well organised, the New republic was not. The new republic was destroying itself with political problems and there was a sort of war going on within the NR itself. The imperials would 'not descend to this level' as they would say. They would not have succumbed to this and would be Much more organised, anyone going against the reigem would have been excecuted.
Sure, the Empire wouldnt have all the major political problems (all political opponents having been eliminated), but on the other hand there were considerable minor issues, between different factions in Palpatine's court, over ambitious/corrupt senior officers in the forces, and the lack of unity between species (the anti-alien bias causing internal unrest).
They would have immence firepower, and even though their fighters would be at a disadvantage against Coralskippers, they would have used Imperial knoledge to construct New fighters to combat this new threat. In fact, they would probably have used X-Wings as they were the origional people who the fighters were designed for. There were also some Imperial fighters that were equipped with shields.
Yes, they would have immense firepower, but the Vong had unconventional weapons that were clearly superior to anything the Empire or NR had. I doubt that Imperial knowledge was any better than NR knowledge (since they would have been the same scientists and designers), so new tech to fight the Vong wouldnt have been developed any quicker. The X-Wing fighter design was against Imperial design philosophy (and was cast out prior to the Alliance getting it), so the chances of the Empire having them available for use is very small, and to redesign them up to current spec and tool up factories to produce them would be time consuming. The Imperial fighters equipped with shields were uncommon, and usually produced in limited numbers, thus would also not be available in sufficient numbers to equip the fleet.
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Just a comment on the 25,000 ISD figure here:
Also, the 25,000 ISDs seems like it may be too small, Slornie, you say it would take 1,012,500,000 people to crew all of the Imperial ISDs? Well, concidering the Earth has a population of 6 billion, I don't see that as a very large number, especially since the Empire spanned several thousand star systems, was pro-conscription and Coruscant alone has a population of just under 1 trillion....
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Just a comment on the 25,000 ISD figure here:
Also, the 25,000 ISDs seems like it may be too small, Slornie, you say it would take 1,012,500,000 people to crew all of the Imperial ISDs? Well, concidering the Earth has a population of 6 billion, I don't see that as a very large number, especially since the Empire spanned several thousand star systems, was pro-conscription and Coruscant alone has a population of just under 1 trillion....
Earth has 6bn people of both genders, the majority of Imperial forces were male.
Several thousand star systems with several thousand species, the Imperial forces were almost exclusively human (due to the Emperor's anti-alien bias).
Coruscant had such a large population, yes, but that population is made up of a diverse number of species (and like i said, the Imperial forces were predominately human), and the fact that those people are there means that they cant be in the Imperial forces :P
And if that is just ISDs, that means that means there have to be billions more people crewing all the smaller military ships, crewing civilian ships, working in shipyards building ships.. And every other job, military and civilian.
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Earth has 6bn people of both genders, the majority of Imperial forces were male.
Several thousand star systems with several thousand species, the Imperial forces were almost exclusively human (due to the Emperor's anti-alien bias).
Coruscant had such a large population, yes, but that population is made up of a diverse number of species (and like i said, the Imperial forces were predominately human), and the fact that those people are there means that they cant be in the Imperial forces
And if that is just ISDs, that means that means there have to be billions more people crewing all the smaller military ships, crewing civilian ships, working in shipyards building ships.. And every other job, military and civilian.
Now, that is not entirely true.
There were Lots of Non-humans that served in the empire, but they had the background jobs. Such as, many worked in the shipyards, and as minor jobs on the large ships.
Prodominantly male yes, BUT there were lots of females involved in the empire. They may not have gone off to war and killed enemies(No evidence to say they didn't At all) But they did have those background jobs too.
And, A majority of the planetary populations were actually Human and there were Billions of planets under Imperial control. They would have had No problem with lack of workers and they would probably have had many slaves working un shipyards and building superweapons.
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Okay, point conceded, maybe there were 25000 ISDs.. But they still wouldnt have all been available to combat the Vong - The majority would be involved with peace keeping and routine operations across the galaxy, if they left their patrols to fight the vong civil order would break down (pirates, smugglers, slavers, inter-planetary wars, malcontents, etc).
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byw, a third death star under construction was destroyed after battle of endoe
was unoperartional though
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You mean the prototype from the Maw Installation? That doesnt count.. It was only built to prove the concept.
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no
i read something on wookiepedia
its not there or i cant find it
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The one at the maw installation was actually the First Death star, Built before the others, to prove that it worked, and then it means the one at endor was actually the Third.
I think you mean that they were trying to complete this one and make it a proper DS, which they were Not
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no
maaybe it was noncanon or bullcrap
would of used a stronger word but dont know how swearing is thought of in this forum
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If you'd read the rules you would know.
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why wouldn't the most of ISDs be able to fight YV? Palpatine used only a minority of his force to fight off rebels. most of the ISDs were in the core and protecting valuable worlds. They wouldn't waste an ISD class military vessel in peacekeeping operation when much smaller would do the job as well. And the YV war cost the galaxy near 365 trillion sentients death. So I think there is no trouble that Empire would have 25000+ ISD and even more smaller ships. And to that cloning, I remember that it only conserned stormtrooper corps, not the whole empire. and my point was that if they would need extra men, which I doubt, they could use it. and conserning the number of humans: "Humans were the galaxy's most numerous and politically dominant sentient species with millions of major and minor colonies galaxywide."
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why wouldn't the most of ISDs be able to fight YV? Palpatine used only a minority of his force to fight off rebels. most of the ISDs were in the core and protecting valuable worlds. They wouldn't waste an ISD class military vessel in peacekeeping operation when much smaller would do the job as well.
Yes, only a small portion of the Imperial fleet was fighting the rebels at any one time, because the majority was occupied maintaining peace and security throughout the rest of the Empire (i cant remember where that is said, but its definitely said in one of the books, might have been the Hand of Thrawn books..). But if they did have 25000 Star Destroyers that werent used for peacekeeping and security, why were there so few at Endor? (and im sure Palpatine made some mention of how much of his starfleet was there)
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but Palpatine trusted for the DSII to finish the rebels. And I'm sure some of the ISDs were with Thrawn in UR and other task forces around the empire.
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If prototype DS fired on and destroyed small capital ships I dont see how it cant be seen as a benefit.
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and any further studies from the Mam installation like that one that destroyed one of the rebel ships in that last book of that trilogy. And wasn't emperor preparing for the arrival of Yuuzhan Vong?
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the prototype death star was enormously inaccurate and was only ble to destroy a planet's core.
effectively, it was an inaccurate eclipse.
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but the laser doesn't need to be so accurate. the dovin basals would suck the beam right on them and try to hold it. but the super laser is too powerful for them.
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The Prototype was aimed at Kessel and hit the moon :-\
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well the crew using it wasn't the best one to use. one thing you should remember. but still I think the prototype wouldn't have been used in battle. it wasn't designed for that.
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The crew using it were some of the Empire's best designers.. And, you're right, it wasnt intended to be used in battle, it was just a proof of concept.
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and being good designer doesn't mean you're good using the thing you have designed. I mean Sivron was bureacraut who believed firm rutins to have the best result. he kept meetings during the assault on the Maw and his "escape" from there.
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surely the empire could use the suncrusher and the war would be won by sending the sun nearest of the main fleet supernova
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That would only work if the Vong fleet was close enough to the star to be within the supernova..
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umm...
dovin basal?
arent you talking about the starlancer, Meyer?
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no. but suncrusher would just be able to fly throught the enemy ships. and sun crusher is relatively easy and cheap to construct, compared to DS, so there could be many of those.
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the resonance torpedoes would be a bit** to produce in mass production and i dont think the empire were willingto mass prodduce theb sun crusher unless they had a way of destroying them in the sun crusher pilot defected
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why would an imperial pilot defect to Yuuzhan Vong?
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if im not mistaken, the republic and empire didnt ally in the vong war
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You are mistaken, the Empire and the NR did ally during the Vong War, and eventually joined together as the GFFA.
And the Suncrusher wouldnt really be suitable to mass production, because both the torpedoes and the Quantum plating would be inordinately expensive.
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but against fleets the torpedos are useless. so you wouldn't need them. and that armor isn't so expenssive.
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If that armour wasnt expensive how come it was only ever used on one small fighter sized ship?
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would the empire be willing to destroy millions of worlds to curb the vong invasion?
the vomng war affected more of the galaxy than even the clone wars
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only one who knew how to make that armor was, as far as I know, Qwi Xux. And her memory was viped clean by Kyp Durron. And Sun Crusher was tossed into the black holes in the Maw. so How could they made it more? But this problem wouldn't occur if the emperor had defeated the rebellion or if it had never even begun.
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doesnt answer my question
would the emperor be willing to destroy nearlyevery planet?
i know the emperor was insane
but he wouldnt destroy star systems to get trid odf a fleet
in my opinion, the starlancer was a significant weapon for them
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there would be no need to destroy thousands of worlds. and starlancer wasn't even an effective weapon. it was used to bluff the Yuuzhan Vong. and more over was used by NR.
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i thought the starlancer used dovin basals to suck the vong into another dimension!
and why would there be no need to destroy thousands of worlds?
the only way the sun crusher could destroy a fleet is by firing a resonance torpedo into the star
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sun crusher could also fly through enemy ships. although I'm not sure can it do it to YV ships but I believe it can. And why would there be any need to destroy thousands of worlds?
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only one who knew how to make that armor was, as far as I know, Qwi Xux. And her memory was viped clean by Kyp Durron. And Sun Crusher was tossed into the black holes in the Maw. so How could they made it more?
Admiral Daala uploaded a copy of all the research data from the Maw Installation before she fled..
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There would be need to destroy worlds
because that was how it caused damage!
it destroyed stars and their syastems!
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but it could also destroy ships by ramming them! try to understand it. but did Daala give that info to anyone else?
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cost-inefficient
and i cant imagine an empire focusing on purchasing ramming ships
and iff mass produced, that would prompt enemies to search for a weakness
would they really want that?
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well first the enemy needs to find weakness.
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but did Daala give that info to anyone else?
Thats never covered in canon either way as far as i know.
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exactly. we don't know.
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the galaxy gun would of been VERY useful IMO
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yep. but it was also quite weakly defended. It could have been easily destroyed.
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so co the eclipse rammed it that is weakly defended?
sorry but any superweapon of the galaxy guns size would be destroyed if the eclipse rammed it
and weapons could always be added
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but still YV could disable it by ramming. and it was no problem for them to sacrifice their own ships.
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YV didnt have any ships nearlly as big as the eclipse
largest was maybe 8 Km
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why does it need to be as big as Eclipse? I think an ISD could ram the "barrel" of Galaxy Gun and make it inoperable and maybe even destroy. and they can always send numerous ships.
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the eclipse disbaled it, and didnt devestate it
i can assume that it means that it was enough to disable it
i believe the republic had it destroyed afterwards?
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Didn't Eclipse go straigh through the "barrel" of the GG?
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all i know is R2-D2 hacked into the ecl;ipse, sent it into the GG, and it went haywire, and fired a projectile into Byss, destroying it
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and Galaxy Gun was also destroyed when Eclipse rammed it.
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it destroyed it?
i thought it disabled it!
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well it rammed through it. and why didn't anyone use it anyomre if it was only disabled? It was destroyed at least when it was hit by pieces of Byss. And of course the reactor of Eclipse that blew off.
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i guess it would be hard work removing eclipse, and even harder to remove it befor the reactor ble
yeah
it probably blew itnto a millinon pieces
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But the Vong would have to know where the galaxy gun is in the first place, the Empire could just throw it in space somewhere and it'd be long super pwnful long range artillery
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but vong had many spies thanls to their ability to look human. but I think Empire would have won without the superweapons.
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i assume you mean without vong superweapons
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no. without their own superweapons like GG or sun crusher. what superweapons did the YV have?
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they could use a dovin basal to lure a moon into a planet and destroy botas
as happened with sernpidal
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well I don't count that as an superweapon. otherwise all their ships would be armed with superweapons.
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it caused the devastation of a superweapon
destroyed sernpidal (and chewie :( WHY?) and many others
in my opinion it is a superweapon
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in my mind it's simply a weapon that can cause massive destruction. but it is still only a weapon. just like nukes. those aren't superweapons. those are weapons of massive destrution power.
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but if empire had a weapon like that you would call it a superweapon
agree?
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no I wouldn't. but Empire didn't have that kind of an weapon so arguing about it is useless.
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death star caused the same effect, so it was effectively the same in purpose. the death star is a superweapon
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but death star had other functions. and I don't think you can say dovin basal a superweapon just because it can destroy planets like death star. You now that a large numbers of ISDs could destroy a planet also. So are they a superweapon also.
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ONE dovin basal could destroy a planet (i know there were millions)
it would take thousands of ISDs to destroy a planet
they would not destroy it
they would simply melt the surface completely
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and if they keep shooting it long enough they would destroy it eventually. but still dovin basal is not a superweapon. do you think that tractor beam is a superweapon?
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well centerpoint station is
this is getting boring
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yes it is. but also if you get large enough tractor beam and can get enough power to it, it too could pull a moon to a planet. and don't forget you started this dovin basal thing.
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but vong had many spies thanls to their ability to look human
spies wouldn't help much if they just went randomly through hyperspace without anyone knowing where it was except the crew, and you could easily screen that
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yep. but that missile could also be shot down. I'm pretty sure that YV weapons were powerful enough for that. or they could pull it to one of their dovin basals.
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Well the missle itself could have dropped out of hyperspace super close and it did have heavy shields, armor and weapons
Im not saying they couldn't block any, im just sayin most they wouldn't be able too
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did it have weapons? I thought it had good shield and armor but I didn't know it had weapons on it.
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Yeah, it had some laser cannons, i forget if it had turbolasers though
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i know this is a really old discussion but i feel it needs to be brought back to life. the rebellion in the early days of the empire like episode 4 was more of a guerilla force. guerilla tactics are much much harder to fight than a defined enemy with a known objective. and also it would only take 1 star destroyer to make a planet uninhabitable. the leviathan did it to taris by its self in kotor.
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Taris didn't have any shields, and there weren't any other ships there to oppose it...
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And, if you paid any attention to dialog, Karath talked about moving the fleet into position, so there was more than one ship....
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i know this is a really old discussion but i feel it needs to be brought back to life. the rebellion in the early days of the empire like episode 4 was more of a guerilla force. guerilla tactics are much much harder to fight than a defined enemy with a known objective. and also it would only take 1 star destroyer to make a planet uninhabitable. the leviathan did it to taris by its self in kotor.
And i don't really get what that has to do with the discussion topic....
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Taris didn't have any shields, and there weren't any other ships there to oppose it...
same with several other planets in the star wars galaxy.
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And your point is?
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it would only take 1 star destroyer to take out a planet is my point
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And that is relevant because?...
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none of this has anything to do with the topic.
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ok the empire could take out the yv simply by fire power. they had so many numbers that the amount of fire they would give off would be enough to give off dovin basils. all this is assuming this is pre galactic civil war
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ok the empire could take out the yv simply by fire power. they had so many numbers that the amount of fire they would give off would be enough to give off dovin basils. all this is assuming this is pre galactic civil war
But if a ragtag bunch of rebels could defeat the Empire, how could it possibly stand up against a huge organised war machine?
Then add that most of the Imperial Fleet was occupied maintaining the peace, and thus unavailable for a major conflict.
And the lack of Jedi distracting the Vong from their primary goal, so their full power is concentrated on the Empire.
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but imperial navy was designed for an all out war. It would have been perfect for fighting against YV. It wasn't supposed to fight against hit-and-run tactics. And if YV would come and threaten to wreak havoc and destruction and death to the galaxy I think empire would have been able to assign more units to fight YV.
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Right, and the Imperial Remnant's ships fared so much better than the New Republic's?
The Imperial fighter craft would be utterly useless against the Vong (remember, until the Rebel Alliance won with superior fighters, the Empire went with cheaper, weaker fighters) - They dont have any shielding against the Dovin Basals, and few had projectile weapons.
Meanwhile, Star Destroyers, however powerful, were just as vulnerable to the Vong as any of the New Republic ships.
And i still say that without the Jedi running around, the Vong would have been more focused on cleansing the galaxy.
I think the only advantage the Empire would have had over the New Republic is Thrawn not having been killed - But even he wasnt infallible.
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plus dozen of superweapons. And I don't think you can compare the Empire before Endor and Imperial remnant. there was so many differences between them. And Empire concentrated on massive number of starfighters. The more you got the easier it is to penetrate the dovin basal.
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Why cant you compare the Empire with the Imperial Remnant? They used the exact same technology, the same protocols and tactics (except for those changed after being defeated by the Rebel Alliance). I would assume that they maintained similar unit strengths, in proportion to the territory they controlled.
Yes, the Empire had superweapons, but they were all found to have flaws that rendered them near useless - I dont see that being any different against the Vong. Sure, they had Maw Installation researching new weapons, but they were focused on combating conventional forces, whereas the Vong were decidedly unconventional in all respects.
The Empire's philosophy was to have huge numbers of weaker starfighters (which the Rebels proved to be a poor strategy) - This means that even though they might have superior numbers, they would be far easier for the Vong to destroy (remember the plasma that ate through durasteel? And with no shields for initial deflection).
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Imperial tactics did change after Thrawn. they began to use smaller number of better quality fighters. and Thrawn began to use shields on his ties. And also the imperial remnant didn't have massive cloning facilities and shipyards to produce new troopers and ships. empire did have. And I doubt YV would have searched any weaknesses from imperial superweapons. they would have think they were a mockery to their gods and just try to destroy them with sheer force. And Empire did have many high quality fighters which they didn't mass produce because they were expensive. but given time, from 4 ABY to 25 ABY, I believe there would have been large enough of them to counter the YV.
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can i just ask, post-YV war, was there a sort of militarisation and a boom in weapons upgrading and research to try and fare better than the vong next time?
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can i just ask, post-YV war, was there a sort of militarisation and a boom in weapons upgrading and research to try and fare better than the vong next time?
Well, there was research and development of new ships, as you see some of the results in the Swarm War and the Confederation/Alliance War. But it doesnt seem like there was a major increase in R&D.
I thought the Vong went off all happy with Zonoma Sekot though, so i wasnt expecting there to be a "next time".
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Let me point out that the Sun Crusher HAD NO FLAWS. The only reason it was destroyed was because Kype stopped and said "what the fuck am I doing?" and dumped it into a black-hole. So, that mention of super weapons being useless is not quite accurate. Further, the Empire had stealth technology since before the Battle of Endor, which wasn't really used in the Vong wars, but could have easily become more common had the Empire not collapsed.
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Let me point out that the Sun Crusher HAD NO FLAWS. The only reason it was destroyed was because Kype stopped and said "what the fuck am I doing?" and dumped it into a black-hole. So, that mention of super weapons being useless is not quite accurate. Further, the Empire had stealth technology since before the Battle of Endor, which wasn't really used in the Vong wars, but could have easily become more common had the Empire not collapsed.
would anyone be willing to annihilate millions of worlds using it? then, they would be as bad as the YV.
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Let me point out that the Sun Crusher HAD NO FLAWS. The only reason it was destroyed was because Kype stopped and said "what the fuck am I doing?" and dumped it into a black-hole.
The Sun Crusher had no known flaws against conventional weapons, which the Vong didnt use. At the very least, it only had a limited load of those star buster missiles (and its reliant on the enemy not moving while the star goes *poof*). Also, get a big enough Dovin Basal, and it would be just as dead as when it was sucked into a blackhole.
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would anyone be willing to annihilate millions of worlds using it? then, they would be as bad as the YV.
Lay a trap in an uninhabited system where they can use driods to run decoy ships and bye bye YV fleet. And the Sun Crusher Could just stay away from the enemy warships, WAY out of range of the Davin Basals, and launch it's torpedo quite safely.
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it is much easier to fight a defined enemy than one where guerilla tactics are used
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The Vong know so much about biology and gravity that the minute that torpedoe affected the star, they'd probably know and be outta there.
And im not sure how effective stealth would be against the YV, theyd probably be able to detect through some gravity trick or somethin
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And im not sure how effective stealth would be against the YV, theyd probably be able to detect through some gravity trick or somethin
Yeah, their tracking system used the unique gravitic signature of each ship to identify it, which stealth tech wouldnt hide.
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besides all the stygum crystals are gone except for a select few so making stealthed ships would be nearly impossible
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Let me point out that the Sun Crusher HAD NO FLAWS. The only reason it was destroyed was because Kype stopped and said "what the fuck am I doing?" and dumped it into a black-hole.
The Sun Crusher had no known flaws against conventional weapons, which the Vong didnt use. At the very least, it only had a limited load of those star buster missiles (and its reliant on the enemy not moving while the star goes *poof*). Also, get a big enough Dovin Basal, and it would be just as dead as when it was sucked into a blackhole.
but first the dovin basal should get a lock on the sun crusher. which it can't because it's so fast and manouverable.
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so is a missile and dovin basils have sucked those in plenty of times. what you need to do is have a cloaked yv ship in front of the sun crusher and then turn on a dovin basil at the exact moment.
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YV ships don't cloak. and missiles don't usually move around dodging. they usually finds their flightpath and follow it.
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The Dovin Basals could still catch the Sun Crusher in their area of effect, which would slow it and hamper its movement.
And it still isnt proved to be invulnerable - Remember how the plasma ate through durasteel? There is nothing to say that wouldnt happen to the Quantum armour, and apart from the small stock of those star buster missiles, its only armament was four little laser cannons (pretty useless), and i cant see it being able to ram the Vong ships (like that Star Destroyer in the Maw) without being caught by a Dovin Basal.
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then how come republic fighter were able to avoid dovin basals? they're not that much bigger. And didn't we already have this conversation at the beginning of this topic?
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yes, but i never said they should useing the Sun Crusher to ram enemy ships. As I said, lay a trap using decoy ships in an uninhabited system and destroy the star while they are fighting the
decoy from the othre side of the star.
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The YV can't be so stupid that they'd fall for that. as stated earlier they would probably realize the chain reaction and have time to escape.
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And, even if they did fall for it, using the Sun Crusher like that is a one time trick. At most the Vong would only lose one task force (they wouldnt have their whole fleet chasing down a few ships - Which is all the decoy would be), and their ships can be replaced much quicker than those of the Empire.
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I thought some yv ships can cloak.
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no they looked like asteroids so they could be mistaken as such. but they couldn't cloak.
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just saying, quantum armour could be damaged by an extremely fast-travelling corusca gem, as seen on lando's corusca mining ship.
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thats true i always thought they should make armor out of corsca gems
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That would be like making armor out of diamonds for a tank.
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except corsca gems are stronger. its a good concept just hard to do. besides diamond is really brittle.
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I was referring to the cost.
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oh. well that is something of a challenge. it would probably be the only ship in it's class if that were the case. a one of a kind ship.
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each corusca gem has a point which if tapped, would shatter it from the lightest tap.
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yes but if you were to make a scale style armor covering up that point with other corsca gem then you would have some amazing armor. expensive, but amazing.
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I am going to just avoid the recent discussion, considering i dont know that much about the Yuuzhan Vong, but anyways, I seriously think that the Yuuzhan Vong would beat the Empire, hands down.
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once again the tactical officers of both navies can really turn the tide of a war. it could go either way.
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Your right about that, I guess. Still, by the look of things, it appears that the Yuuzhan Vong are dominant, or rather that's in my opinion.
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they were dominant until ebaq 9. am i correct?
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pretty much. although many fights that the yv lost contributed to the turn of the war.
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That is quite possibly the most stupid common sense thing that even a squirrel could have figured out i've ever heard.
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ok well just throwing it out there.
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The only segment I really know about with Star Wars is the Galactic Civil War, though I know a bit about the others, but anyway, I am out of date with the Yuuzhan Vong. They were actually defeated? I thought their invasion was still continuing.
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the yv get destroyed, mainly from an untouchable revolution breaking out during many finaly strikes made by the republic. i think the untouchables and a few others were given a home world and the yv onces again felt the force.
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actually all Yuuzhan Vongs boarded the Zonama Sekot and left to the UR.
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they did? i thought that zonama sekote stayed in orbit near coruscant. the yv feel the force again dont they?
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they do feel the force again. but they left because many, especially the bothans, wanted their utter annihilation. All YVs were to be killed and the race made extinct. Ar'krai. Maybe the YV come back in LotF to save the Galaxy and seek redemption in the eyes of others. that would be cool.
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yea it would. bothans suck though. an entire race turning good is an amazing thing.
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in the legacy era, the vong are allies of the jedi, and the shaper caste are attempting their shaping projects.
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is vong tech still being used? i cant find any indication of it.
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shaping. not like warfare.
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thats interesting.
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it was called the ossus project. by vongforming, ecosystems could be grown. just look at what happedned to duro.
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that powerful huh?
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Wow, so the Vong were defeated, and they decided to be good? Didnt they originally want the complete annihilation of the SW galaxy? Major turn of events there.
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Well, it was a revolution by the lowest Vong class, after they realized they were being misleaded
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So only a small part of the whole defected, ah well, it's still pretty major.
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the untouchables marched with republic troops on coruscant.
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The Untouchables are a group of the Yuuzhan Vong right?
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thats the lowest class.
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Ok then, but still, it's a prominent event that see's a genocidal race turn in on itself.
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i also smelled a bit of irony
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I agree, it just seems so titanic that a race previously hell bent on utter detsruction would ally themselves with thsoe they wished to destroy.
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the untouchables marched with republic troops on coruscant.
Aren't they called the Shamed Ones? At least that is my understanding. and all YV left to UR after the war ended. some came back to help but that was only later. After the LotF.
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Hmm. This is an area I am really not experienced with, so I will submit to everyone else on the matter.
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the shamed ones are the ones like omini, right?
and the vong wanted domination of the galaxy, not destruction.
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Ah. I must be confusing them with Tyranids.
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YV wanted to conguer the Galaxy and destroy all native species they found.
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Ok that sounds more like a cross between Tyranids and the Sith.
Pretty evil if you ask me.
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Back on topic, Thrawn wins, the end.
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thank you thats what i wanted to hear.
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Okay, ive split off the book discussion, you can find that here (http://gutr.swrebellion.com/forums/index.php/topic,757.0.html)
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Back on topic, Thrawn wins, the end.
End of story. Lock the thread.
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what if the yv came before thrawn had a ship or a command post of any kind?
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Tough one, depends on the time period
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hmm maybe like death star 1 era if the rebellion hadn't destroyed it.
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By that time Thrawn was already a admiral so he would still have kicked their ass.and with DS the yv would have been pulverized.
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The anti-alien bias of the Empire would hinder Thrawn greatly, many officers would resent (and maybe reject) his authority. Also, Thrawn was only one officer, who could only be in one place at a time.
As for the Death Star (which i think we've discussed here before), it could only hit planet/moon sized objects, and could fire only once before it needed to recharge for 24 hours. The Second Death Star would not exist if the Rebel Alliance hadnt destroyed the first one, as it was only considered and designed after the defeat at Yavin IV. Without that, there would be no need to design and build another, and thus it wouldnt have happened.
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yes Thrawn is but a man person. but still he would have been a hard to beat by YV. After he had beat them once it would become a question of honor to the YV commanders to beat him. And DS needed 24 hours to charge on full power. it could shoot low powered shots much often. and even those would have been able to destroy a ship. and YV had very large ships. for example the Worldships.
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And DS needed 24 hours to charge on full power. it could shoot low powered shots much often. and even those would have been able to destroy a ship. and YV had very large ships. for example the Worldships.
The first Death Star couldnt target anything smaller than a planet/moon. The Vong only had a few ships that would be large enough to be targeted. So the Death Star would only be useful as a giant mobile command centre, capable of destroying planets (although if it just went round blowing up every planet the Vong invaded, it would probably spark another rebellion).
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but the DS doesn't need to be so accurate. if the superlaser even touches a space ship it is destroyed. and DS had thousands of turbolasers to battle fleets.
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Only if the Vong decided to battle the Death Star. Personally, i would leave it be (something to come back to later), and concentrate on other matters - Like the fleet, production/population centres and my galactic domination plans. Although, the Vong probably wouldnt think like that, considering how huge an abomination the Death Star would be in their eyes.
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death star was effectively impervious to turbolasers. not necessarily impervious to vong weaponary.
and if you want a time when thrawn had no role, there is no known time. before he joined the empire, he was captain in the chiss ascendancy fleet, taking down outbound flight. but before imperial service, try around 24BBY-ish.
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the deathstar 1 also only had partial shields to protect against capital attacks. if the yv fighters got in there they could do some damage. personally i'd get to the surface drop a nuke and get out.
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it needed to nuclear missiles directly to the reactor to explode! So I think that one on the surface wouldn't be so bad. And DS had some 7000 TIEs that it could send to battle. not so easy to get to the point-blank range. And it's armament was:
* Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser (1)
o Range: 47,060,000 kilometers
* Taim & Bak D6 turbolaser batteries (5,000)
* Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers (5,000)
* SFS L-s 4.9 laser cannons (2,500)
* Borstel MS-1 ion cannons (2,500)
* Phylon tractor beam generators (768)
* Charged-particle blasters
* Magnetic railguns
* Proton torpedo banks
So even without the superlaser it is a formidable enemy. And the DSII had even more weapons.
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The Death Star would work very well as a battle platform against the YV, and it could easily double as a command centre. Many people underestimate the first Death Star because it could only fire the superlaser on planets and moons, but it had thousands of weapons to easily destroy incoming ships. Dont know if it would be effective against the YV, so I'll leave that up to the people that know more about them.
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And DS had some 7000 TIEs that it could send to battle. not so easy to get to the point-blank range. And it's armament was:
* Concave Dish Composite Beam Superlaser (1)
o Range: 47,060,000 kilometers
* Taim & Bak D6 turbolaser batteries (5,000)
* Taim & Bak XX-9 heavy turbolasers (5,000)
* SFS L-s 4.9 laser cannons (2,500)
* Borstel MS-1 ion cannons (2,500)
* Phylon tractor beam generators (768)
* Charged-particle blasters
* Magnetic railguns
* Proton torpedo banks
Yet, due to Imperial overconfidence, the Rebel Alliance managed to get to the Death Star, through its shield, and into the correct trench. What is to prevent the Vong from managing the same?
The Death Star had:
- Surface area of 80425km2.
- One turbolaser per 8 km2.
- One laser cannon per 4 km2.
- One ion cannon per 4 km2.
- One TIE per 11.5 km2.
Compare that with the (estimated) stats for a Imperial II Star Destroyer:
- Surface area of 1.28 km2.
- One turbolaser per 0.03 km2.
- One ion cannon per 0.064 km2.
- One TIE per 0.02 km2.
So really, the Death Star wasnt all that heavily armoured.
So even without the superlaser it is a formidable enemy. And the DSII had even more weapons.
Yet, as i argued earlier, the Second Death Star wouldnt have existed.
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we can't know that. the Empire develop better weapons all the time. and if not mkII then maybe more DSIs. Where did you get the surface area of DS by the way?
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Surface area of a sphere = 4 x Pi x Radius2 = 4 x Pi x 802 (1/2 of 160km diameter).
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the only reason that the rebels were able to destroy the death star was becasue of luke and the information on the only weakness it had. also the empire would have upgraded it if they were in a major war so it could have become more like DSII and it would never be used alone so other capital ships would help protect it. the YV would throw to many resources against it and would cause themselves to lose.
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YV WEAPONS MELTED DOWN SHIELDS.
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Slornie, your calculations are off. It's 4/3 * Pi * radius2. So divide your estimate by three.
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Slornie, your calculations are off. It's 4/3 * Pi * radius2. So divide your estimate by three.
Nope, 4/3 x Pi x Radius2 is the volume ;)
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Right on the surface area, but wrong on the volume. That's 4/3*pi*radius3 ;D. But, also subtract the surface area of the superlaser disc...... thing. Further, you must remember that there are a lot of hangers on the DS, so those eat up space. Plus, you have not considered the final three weapons on Meyer's list.
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Meh, its been a while since i did geometry (or whatever) :P
I was just showing a rough estimate to compare the Death Star relative to a Star Destroyer, not a detailed statistical analysis. To go into as much detail as you are suggesting would be practically impossible with the known data.
As for the particle blasters, railguns and proton torpedoes, there is no information on how many of them there were, so they cannot be added to my comparison.
The point i was trying to make was that although the Death Star had a considerable amount of firepower, when you take into consideration the physical size of the station, that armament is of a much lower concentration than on the standard Imperial warships.
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but most of those turbolaser were on towers which could rotate 360 degrees. so they covered very large area. so that how many of those are on a square km doesn't really tell you anything. and those turbolaser had fairly good range also. and have you taken out of the area of the superlaser dish? there is no way there is turbolasers.
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and they were also towers. but they would be a little spread for my tastes
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and the points not how concentrated weapons are. thats like saying nuclear subs are less useful becasue they have less torpedo launchers per km squared than an attack sub. it really doesn't matter, the nuclear sub can fire a nuke...
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YV WEAPONS MELTED DOWN SHIELDS.
SO DO TURBOLASERS
and the points not how concentrated weapons are. thats like saying nuclear subs are less useful becasue they have less torpedo launchers per km squared than an attack sub. it really doesn't matter, the nuclear sub can fire a nuke...
And no, Slornie makes a valid point, considering the vong could take out when section of turbos and have an entirely open side to attack, weapons placement is very important
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umm attack subs are for certain things. nuke subs are for nuking
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exactly, the death star is for destroying things... anything. all they have to do is fire the laser, the YV gravity wells will take care of the rest...
i know it was a bad example... but the DS would still be pretty effective. after all, even if all its weaponry is spread out it can still shoot.
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The first one couldn't target ships, so, it can't shoot very well
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A very small percentage of that weaponry would ever be in range of the enemy, assuming they were stupid enough to get that close. The advantage of fighting something that big is that you could stay far away and just take pot shots and still hit something, whereas the Death Star would have no chance of hitting anything small and far away with its weaponry that is most likely intended for point defense.
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The first one couldn't target ships, so, it can't shoot very well
but the gravity wells would help the shot bend towards the YV ships
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The gravity wells activate to suck up shots, they aren't always on, they aren't going to use them to kill themselves
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i have to agree with meyer, the only reason the rebs won is because of their tactics, the empire couldnt stop a force they couldnt see, the empire and yuuzhan vong have the same way of fighting, and the universe probly would have been destroyed if they had fought
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also for the deathstar 1 to fire a planet killing laser, it took 24 hours to recharge
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So it's virtually useless for a full day after it fires.
The YV would have trouble if they got close to it, but no-one is that stupid. They would just attack it from afar.
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YV WEAPONS MELTED DOWN SHIELDS.
SO DO TURBOLASERS
Neither of them melt shields.
And DSI defenses were designed against a large scale attack. it its said on the Ep.IV.
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how do you melt energy?
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no idea. maybe vadereclipse or scarecrow63 could tell us.
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i was using it as a metaphor. yv weapons pretty much destroyed shields immediately.
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No, it took some time to chew through the shields of an enemy vessel. Hence why capital ships could survive extended combat with the vong.
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Yeah I agree with Dane Kiet and Meyer; that point seems a bit conviluted. I'm sorry if I offended you in any way on that one vadereclipse, just pointing out something. Why must we always take sides? (wonders idly and sadly)
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shooting anything at a wall to break it down takes time. it just depends on the strength of the barrier your shooting at and the weapon your using.
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Well no and i'll tell you why.
The Empire would have a chance but they would waste their time wasting countless credits and resources making a superweapon with some flashy name like the universe destroyer and planet killer etc. Then they'd accidently let someone steal the plans and forget to nail down a board protecting a exaust shaft leading right down into their reactor core. then a hot shot enemy pilot would fly in and blast the superweapon to the heavens! 8)
and this rant i just said is similair to a rant Han solo said when the subject was brought up in one of the new jedi order books. :laugh:
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Seriously Anarchist, do you and Meyer really have to argue about this in every thread?
Locked
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Right, ive cleared the recent off-topic topic posts, and am reopening the thread to allow for some more constructive debate.
Sorry Crow :P
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Take my fun :'(
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Well I apologize, and I will shut up about the whole matter if need be; if we really have to argue, we'll do it over PM's from now on. I am sorry that I didnt realize that my actions were causing threads to be forced to be locked, soa s I said, if we wish to continue, I will PM him, but it is his decision to do so as well.
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Well no and i'll tell you why.
The Empire would have a chance but they would waste their time wasting countless credits and resources making a superweapon with some flashy name like the universe destroyer and planet killer etc. Then they'd accidently let someone steal the plans and forget to nail down a board protecting a exaust shaft leading right down into their reactor core. then a hot shot enemy pilot would fly in and blast the superweapon to the heavens! 8)
and this rant i just said is similair to a rant Han solo said when the subject was brought up in one of the new jedi order books. :laugh:
Except that YV wouldn't have been interested in plans which where in technical form. they would have seen it as a mockery against their gods and destroyed them without second thought.
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i believe that's a quote from one of the books by han solo.
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Near quote. And, Meyer's right. They would look at the schematics and say "Blasphemy!" They wouldn't care if it was useful.
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unless they would give the plans to Nem Yim or some other heretic people of theirs. they might look at them and say: Maybe we should exploit this weakness.
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they wouldn't, claiming that they would only need their own skills and the will of their gods to defeat the weapon.
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were vong really renowned for strategy?
weren't they just like "attack in huge overwhelming numbers, not worrying about damage and casualties"?
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No, they were quite capable of strategy, they used it often, mainly in trickery and such
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and it worked well. NR was powerless against in the early years.
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Well, that was also mainly due to the technology adjustment
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pre-vong could any mass-produced ships do effective damage to vong ships?
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Yea, the ships could still fight the Vong, take the first real engagement with an ISD and the Ranger gunships at Helska, they took out most of the Vong there. The actual change in technology was minimal, the largest difference was the NR's change of tactics and such due to experience with the Vong.
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And adaptations of previous stuff, like stutter fire.
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Yea, the ships could still fight the Vong, take the first real engagement with an ISD and the Ranger gunships at Helska, they took out most of the Vong there. The actual change in technology was minimal, the largest difference was the NR's change of tactics and such due to experience with the Vong.
but wasn't the ISD destroyed?
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by change in technology, do you mean like MC90 to viscount?
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but wasn't the ISD destroyed?
Yeah, but it still put up a fight, casualties are part of battle.
by change in technology, do you mean like MC90 to viscount?
No, I mean like stutter fire, increasing the range of the inertial compensators to stop shield stripping, stuff like that. Like I said, they didn't do anything super major, just tweaked what they already had.
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but in terms of ship classes, the viscount was the biggest ship development, right?
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Wouldn't the presence of leaders such as Thrawn and the Emperor turn the tide of the war? The Imperial forces were much more efficient with the presence of a strong leader. Perhaps Sith Battle Meditation on the part of the Emperor and Darth Vader?
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but in terms of ship classes, the viscount was the biggest ship development, right?
The largest Moncal ship yes, but it was developed before the vong war
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after the vong war, ships needed to be more maneuverable. size really began to screw you over more than help.
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you're getting this where?
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revelation
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Be more specific. What ship killed what ship? How was it killed? What battle was it?
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yeah it was a near quote from what han said. although one interesting thing is that palpatine designed the empire so it could destroy the vong. palpatine forsaw the vong invasion and that's why he reorganized the nr into the empire. 8)
too bad palpatine didn't forsee his own death! :laugh:
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I henceforth name this thread The Ultimate SW Novel Quote Rippage Thread.
And the Vong could always unleash tons of grutchins or some spores that eat or digest all that metal
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isamu, you're a fucktard.
get some proper evidence. not just assumptions and open-ended answeres.
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isamu, you're a fucktard.
get some proper evidence. not just assumptions and open-ended answeres.
besides flaming, this is also wrong.
the empirial remnant desiged the bloodfin which was a "pocket" stardestroyer. smaller and more maneuverable than preveous isd's but still had the kick of one. this was being discussed when pellaeon was being presented with the ship which he would use to help in the aid of invading fondor
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So the IR made one small powerful ship, and that leads you to the conclusion that big ships are no longer any good?
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Maybe they just lost effectinevess compared to smaller ships? Not as cost-effective as smaller ships perhaps?
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Maybe they just lost effectinevess compared to smaller ships? Not as cost-effective as smaller ships perhaps?
ssh. don't take isamu's side. he's never right.
big ships are stronger.
the turbulent-class looks to me like it filled the place of the victory, which was pretty much obsolete by then.
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I am just trying to help him. The bigger the ship doesnt necessarily mean it is overall better according to the rules of 'cost-effectiveness'.
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but big ships generally are cost-effective.
i mean, i'll give you that eclipses and sovereigns were not cost-effective, but executors and ISDs were very cost-effective.
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Isamu, it packed the punch of an ISD in a smaller package, but then they could build a new ship just as large as the normal Impstars with even more firepower. Just because they made a smaller vessel doesn't mean larger one are obsolete. Besides, the Chimera was an outdated ISD with some new toys that was kicking ass.
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Turbulent-class SD was designed as smaller and more maneuverable variant SD than ISD.
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Let me rephrase that. The Chimera was kicking the Turbulent-class SDs asses in that fight.
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So the IR made one small powerful ship, and that leads you to the conclusion that big ships are no longer any good?
no its just that tactics had moved on from pure slug matches. mainly impart of the rebellion taking down isd's with only 12 x-wing grouped attacks. and the chimera had a special weapon that gave it an advantage. the phase shifter.
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So the IR made one small powerful ship, and that leads you to the conclusion that big ships are no longer any good?
no its just that tactics had moved on from pure slug matches. mainly impart of the rebellion taking down isd's with only 12 x-wing grouped attacks.
you mean rogue squadron taking down ISDs. big difference. rogue squadron=elite pilots.
generic squadrons: people with minimal training. (to an extent, the rebels would have taken what they could, i mean luke qwas admitted after a few hour's training.)
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yes it was mainly rogue squadron but many other squadrons did the same thing. it was too much for the imperials to lose 35,000 approximate crew and a very expensive star destroyer to 12 pilots with a few proton torpedoes. also the ability to move through a battlefield is very essential to winning. slug fights usually end with the winning side heavily damaged. if you can slip into the enemy defense screen, you can do unimaginable damage. that is what the turbulent class is for. and also the chimaera was defending the turbulent class that was there which was the bloodfin. because pellaeon was onboard and after he died, she was trying to capture the ship.
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i doubt an enemy ship of anything larger than a small frigate could get to the defence screen. as soon as it is evident that the enemy ship is heading there, it is focused on, and on the whole, destroyed.
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And the Rogues never actually kill even a Vic by themselves. They always have support when they kill something that size. They didn't kill The Vic in Bacta Wars until the Alderaanian War Frigate showed up.
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look at wat thrawn was able to do with a mere 100 meter long ship against thousands of ships.
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Thousands of fighters, not capitals. Unless you are talking about the Vagaari, in which case, he used all those droid starfighters and C'baoth's use of the force. Does not count.
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Let me rephrase that. The Chimera was kicking the Turbulent-class SDs asses in that fight.
actually the Chimaera didn't fight against Bloodfin. and no way even rogue squadron would destroy ISD on their own. 1 ISD carries some 60 fighters. I'm not counting the bombers which bring the number to 72.
and Thrawn was able to bring total chaos on heavily destroyed ship yard with just one modified bulk cruiser and 50 mole miners plus some 40 ties.
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Let me rephrase that. The Chimera was kicking the Turbulent-class SDs asses in that fight.
actually the Chimaera didn't fight against Bloodfin. and no way even rogue squadron would destroy ISD on their own. 1 ISD carries some 60 fighters. I'm not counting the bombers which bring the number to 72.
and Thrawn was able to bring total chaos on heavily destroyed ship yard with just one modified bulk cruiser and 50 mole miners plus some 40 ties.
in the rogue squadrron games, they did over kothilis. i believe it is canon.
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I would like to point out that the smaller the ship the less fighters it can carry unless the ship is designed specifically for fighter deployment. so star destroyers would still have some effectiveness.
if a ship was only designed for fighter deployement their armanents would be light and therefore it would need a convoy or escort ships to help defend it. An imperial Star Destroyer can carry a good amount of fighters while still having the firepower to back it up.
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actually, ships like the flurry which was at bakura held more fighters than home 1, although its purpose was a mobile hangar.