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Posted by: jordanthejq12
« on: December 24, 2014, 12:34:01 PM »

The Jedi probably would get in there and do something. I would presume that the Jedi leadership would know this invasion was a lot more than a small invasion on the far side of Imperial territory, and even if they couldn't see that, it would become quite plain once the Vong struck in full force. At that point you wonder if the Imperial alliance would be enough to contain the Vong. Probably, which means the NR gets to stick around for a fair bit longer.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 24, 2014, 10:51:44 AM »

Quote from: Pali on December 24, 2014, 06:49:02 AM
Agreed.  Even the biggest hawks in the NR couldn't have convinced the council to go along with attacking a major power with the combined military might of the PA and IR circa 11 ABY, particularly if that power is itself sincerely seeking peace and has the popular support of its citizenry.  And it occurs to me that, in this alternate timeline we've constructed, the Vong books probably would've been from a largely PA/IR point of view (with them being rightfully in the hero role for this conflict), since it'd have been damn-near impossible to convince the NR leadership at that time to lend aid to what would look, at least at first, like a small invasion on the far side of Imperial territory.  Though now I'm intrigued by the notion of this peace treaty having been in place for over a decade, and the possibility of Imperial Jedi fighting the Vong while the NR are the bad guys because of bureaucratic and political corruption... Disney!  Movie VIII!  With a govt. that could respond quickly and decisively to the Vong early on, the storyline could be condensed to two hours, I'm sure - if you need longer, have Peter Jackson do it in three and a half (wait, no, he'd need at least three movies...).

Well I don't know about Imperial Jedi but I could see the New Jedi Order helping the Imps(Similar to the Bakura situation) Also I don't even see the IR/PA asking the NR for help(I mean hell they didn't want to ask for help when they lost their capital!) From the EotH yes, that I can see. Still it would make a Kriffing good movie!
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 24, 2014, 06:49:02 AM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on December 24, 2014, 03:11:58 AM
This is a very accurate assumption I think. Kaine would have focused on defense and stability, Pellaeon would have backed this as long as the NR didn't come forward into their territory and the NR would have left the IR/PA largely alone, after the Crimson Empire situation the NR really didn't launch any major offensives against the Empire or Warlords until after Orinda offensive and even then that response was limited. I think the two states could have coexisted rather well and when you factor the EotH into it you have a well armed military state with a flourishing economy with strong ties to one of the other factions and at least tolerable coexistance with the other. I don't see the Vong being anywhere near as successful, since their invasion corrifor would have been smack through heavily fortified and patrolled IR/PA territory, thus denying them their beachhead.

Agreed.  Even the biggest hawks in the NR couldn't have convinced the council to go along with attacking a major power with the combined military might of the PA and IR circa 11 ABY, particularly if that power is itself sincerely seeking peace and has the popular support of its citizenry.  And it occurs to me that, in this alternate timeline we've constructed, the Vong books probably would've been from a largely PA/IR point of view (with them being rightfully in the hero role for this conflict), since it'd have been damn-near impossible to convince the NR leadership at that time to lend aid to what would look, at least at first, like a small invasion on the far side of Imperial territory.  Though now I'm intrigued by the notion of this peace treaty having been in place for over a decade, and the possibility of Imperial Jedi fighting the Vong while the NR are the bad guys because of bureaucratic and political corruption... Disney!  Movie VIII!  With a govt. that could respond quickly and decisively to the Vong early on, the storyline could be condensed to two hours, I'm sure - if you need longer, have Peter Jackson do it in three and a half (wait, no, he'd need at least three movies...).
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 24, 2014, 03:11:58 AM »

Quote from: Pali on December 23, 2014, 03:46:19 PM
A non-aggressive, non-oppressive Empire that is leaving the NR alone?  The NR would leave it alone - since repelling the Final Imperial Push, which in this alternative timeline wouldn't have happened, the NR hadn't really been on the offensive against the IR/PA, being too consumed by internal affairs.  I suspect that had Kaine known about the Vong, he'd have been even more inclined than he already was to turtle up within the PA, building up defenses and ships while accepting - temporarily - the NR's position within the galaxy.

This is a very accurate assumption I think. Kaine would have focused on defense and stability, Pellaeon would have backed this as long as the NR didn't come forward into their territory and the NR would have left the IR/PA largely alone, after the Crimson Empire situation the NR really didn't launch any major offensives against the Empire or Warlords until after Orinda offensive and even then that response was limited. I think the two states could have coexisted rather well and when you factor the EotH into it you have a well armed military state with a flourishing economy with strong ties to one of the other factions and at least tolerable coexistance with the other. I don't see the Vong being anywhere near as successful, since their invasion corrifor would have been smack through heavily fortified and patrolled IR/PA territory, thus denying them their beachhead.
Posted by: Revanchist
« on: December 23, 2014, 04:00:39 PM »

In addition, the New Republic had its hands tied as most of the corporate enterprises were allied with the Alignment. Attacking it would have put a serious crimp in the NRs supplies.
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 23, 2014, 03:46:19 PM »

Quote from: jordanthejq12 on December 23, 2014, 12:43:02 PM
How would relations with the NR go, I wonder? Remember, Kaine has to somehow convince them he's not running the same Empire, or else the NR will continue to go after him and thus leave both parties weakened (remember the Vong). If I were Head of State I'd be willing to call it a day if Kaine were willing to initiate talks--especially if the EotH revealed itself and actually had a chance to explain the Vong. Not sure how he'd react, however.

A non-aggressive, non-oppressive Empire that is leaving the NR alone?  The NR would leave it alone - since repelling the Final Imperial Push, which in this alternative timeline wouldn't have happened, the NR hadn't really been on the offensive against the IR/PA, being too consumed by internal affairs.  I suspect that had Kaine known about the Vong, he'd have been even more inclined than he already was to turtle up within the PA, building up defenses and ships while accepting - temporarily - the NR's position within the galaxy.
Posted by: jordanthejq12
« on: December 23, 2014, 12:43:02 PM »

How would relations with the NR go, I wonder? Remember, Kaine has to somehow convince them he's not running the same Empire, or else the NR will continue to go after him and thus leave both parties weakened (remember the Vong). If I were Head of State I'd be willing to call it a day if Kaine were willing to initiate talks--especially if the EotH revealed itself and actually had a chance to explain the Vong. Not sure how he'd react, however.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 23, 2014, 03:04:28 AM »

Quote from: tlmiller on December 22, 2014, 07:26:04 PM
Or even better, Pelleon could have simply joined the alignment with the IR fleet, and instead of the IR annexing the PA, the PA could have annexed the IR and the grand moffs would have been out on their buts.  At this point, I think most of them would realize that becoming a warlord was akin to commiting suicide, so they'd accept that they were no longer going to have power in order to continue living, falling back to being just a normal sector moff and allowing the PA to continue to govern things the way Kaine had set up, which obviously we all agree was the smartest of all warlords.

Agreed, plus then we would have had a faction with Kaine as head of state, little to no anti alien bias, strong economy and resource rich sectors, Pellaeon as an over all military leader and backed by the Reaper, Megador, Dominion and Sorannon. With Kaine's stance on Isolationism and his ability to control the Moffs, they never could have pressured Pellaeon into launching those doomed campaigns against his wishes since Kaine not only outranked them but also was well versed in controlling them. Pellaeon would not have ever had to launch the campaigns at Entralla or the Final Imperial Push which would have left the IR/PA with a significant military force, territory and resources to be self sustaining. Add to this the posibility of the EotH revealing themselves in 19 ABY and the possibility of adding those secotrs in the Unknown Regions either to the IR or at the least as an alliance between the two. Add all this together and you have an Progressive and resurgent Imperial Faction. Now that's a scenario I'd like to see in an Infinities GC!
Posted by: tlmiller
« on: December 22, 2014, 07:26:04 PM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on December 22, 2014, 06:05:03 PM
I really wish Kaine's campaigns in Shadow Hand had more EU coverage. According to sources he led the PA forces through over a dozen victories in his drive to the core. Had it not been for Ennix Devian planting false intel Grant was coming back to the PA Kaine would have survived and continued to lead the PA. With all Pellaeons resources after the deep core was abandoned Kaine would have welcomed him with open arms. Kaines focus onnot invading the NR would have helped keep the Moffs in check and left the IR significantly larger since that final disastrous campaign never would have been launched.

Or even better, Pelleon could have simply joined the alignment with the IR fleet, and instead of the IR annexing the PA, the PA could have annexed the IR and the grand moffs would have been out on their buts.  At this point, I think most of them would realize that becoming a warlord was akin to commiting suicide, so they'd accept that they were no longer going to have power in order to continue living, falling back to being just a normal sector moff and allowing the PA to continue to govern things the way Kaine had set up, which obviously we all agree was the smartest of all warlords.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 22, 2014, 06:05:03 PM »

I really wish Kaine's campaigns in Shadow Hand had more EU coverage. According to sources he led the PA forces through over a dozen victories in his drive to the core. Had it not been for Ennix Devian planting false intel Grant was coming back to the PA Kaine would have survived and continued to lead the PA. With all Pellaeons resources after the deep core was abandoned Kaine would have welcomed him with open arms. Kaines focus onnot invading the NR would have helped keep the Moffs in check and left the IR significantly larger since that final disastrous campaign never would have been launched.
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 22, 2014, 03:50:12 AM »

Quote from: Lord Xizer on December 21, 2014, 10:23:09 PM
Agreed, the Empire Pellaeon created was the best in my opinion. It combined the Order of the Old Empire without the evil aspects. It had a functional and decisive government(Granted the Moffs had their moments of stupidity) If Pellaeon had not been forced to launch that last campaign in 19 ABY his Empire may very well have seen large sections of the Northern Quadrant willingly join a prosperous and Just Empire(As many did after the Vong War)

I feel I must prefer the Empire of the Hand, despite the limited amount of exposure it gets, though Pellaeon's empire is a very close second (with the PA a VERY close 3rd).  As you alluded to, the main issue was mostly the Moff Council, which Pellaeon's empire mostly retained simply due to inheritance, not because Pellaeon would've wanted it the way it was - the flaw in the system was one that remained from the original Empire.  The Empire of the Hand, however, I feel was truly the Star Wars empire that should have been - one that was sincerely based on willing cooperation and acceptance of central authority, and with a central authority that knew its limits and its strengths, and when to employ the latter or recognize the former, as well as having a general long-term goal that it was working towards.

Of course, Thrawn has always been my favorite Imp, so I'm a bit biased here - the empire he personally set up being my favorite is no surprise to me.  Kaine I still have to give a great deal of respect to - he was willing to accept some level of diplomatic relations with the NR in the short term in favor of playing the long game, and from what little I know he didn't push the kind of totalitarian or human-centric policies that helped bring down Palpatine's Empire (as well as, you know, lowering it on the less practical, more ethical scale).  The biggest mistake he made was accepting the reborn Palpatine, though one could argue that his followers (mostly loyal Imperials who felt he was continuing the line best) would have overthrown him had he done otherwise - instead, like nearly everyone who ends up in thrall to a dark-side Force user, he ends up dead due to that Force-user's arrogant overestimation of their abilities.  And to Kaine's credit, the PA did NOT dissolve into chaos after his death the way Palpatine's empire did - instead it remained mostly intact, if somewhat paralyzed in terms of affecting galactic events, until being re-annexed by the Imperial Remnant under Pellaeon.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 21, 2014, 10:23:09 PM »

Quote from: Pali on December 21, 2014, 07:21:15 PM
I'd say that the history of the Star Wars universe rather clearly shows that in the long run, govts. based around Force-users, particularly dark siders, are inherently unstable (light side ones would likely end up too rigid and unchanging to last well either).  The constant infighting and lack of clear lines of succession undoes it every time.  Any Empire based on oppression and subjugation will eventually collapse - the PA, notably, was far less oppressive that the Empire as a whole, and I'd expect a confederated empire like the Hand could last even longer.

Agreed, the Empire Pellaeon created was the best in my opinion. It combined the Order of the Old Empire without the evil aspects. It had a functional and decisive government(Granted the Moffs had their moments of stupidity) If Pellaeon had not been forced to launch that last campaign in 19 ABY his Empire may very well have seen large sections of the Northern Quadrant willingly join a prosperous and Just Empire(As many did after the Vong War)
Posted by: Pali
« on: December 21, 2014, 07:21:15 PM »

I'd say that the history of the Star Wars universe rather clearly shows that in the long run, govts. based around Force-users, particularly dark siders, are inherently unstable (light side ones would likely end up too rigid and unchanging to last well either).  The constant infighting and lack of clear lines of succession undoes it every time.  Any Empire based on oppression and subjugation will eventually collapse - the PA, notably, was far less oppressive that the Empire as a whole, and I'd expect a confederated empire like the Hand could last even longer.
Posted by: StarLordX
« on: December 21, 2014, 06:47:28 PM »

I would go with the rogue warlord route (Empire Reborn), that way non-force sensitives will be infused with Artusian crystals and the Valley of the Jedi's power, creating Dark Jedi soldiers like the Reborn and Shadowtroopers with the assistance of megalomaniacal Dark Jedi like Desann.
Posted by: Lord Xizer
« on: December 19, 2014, 12:12:56 PM »

Quote from: Meyer on December 19, 2014, 02:43:11 AM
Pentastar is the only one with any change of surviving in long term. It's also as mentioned the only that survives the death of its creator making it unique. Also possessing the Reaper and Scourge Squadron gives it strength and it has shipyards and banking worlds which the other warlords lack.

yes, it is in a word, Self-sustaining. It has a future and is also NOT at war with everybody else.
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